>> NOW IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE MORE THAN 770,000 PEOPLE EXPERIENCE HOMELESSNESS IN ONE SINGLE NIGHT IN 2024, WE SPEAK TO THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS, WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THIS STRUGGLE FIRSTHAND.

>> THANKS.

DONALD, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

PRESIDENT TRUMP RECENTLY LAID OUT AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ABOUT HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT?

>> IT COVERS A NUMBER OF THINGS, ALL HORRIFYING.

IT ENCOURAGES CITIES TO ENFORCE FORCED INSTITUTIONALIZATION IN MENTAL HEALTH INSTITUTIONS AND JAILS.

AND WE THINK MAYBE EVEN DETENTION CAMPS.

FORCING PEOPLE INTO SUBSTANCE ABUSE TREATMENT.

IT ALSO DISCOURAGES SOME OF THE PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE SEEN HAVE BEST OUTCOMES.

BEST PRACTICES.

THOSE PROGRAMS ARE DISCOURAGED.

FUNDING WILL BE TAKEN AWAY IF PEOPLE USE THINGS LIKE HARM REDUCTION OR DON'T CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE.

>> IN THERE IT SAYS SUR RENDERING OUR CITIES TO FEAR IS NOT COMPASSIONATE TO HOMELESS OR CITIZENS.

THIS IS PUBLIC SAFETY.

IS PUBLIC SAFETY A PROBLEM BECAUSE OF AN INCREASE IN THE HOMELESS POPULATION?

>> THE SAFETY IS REALLY PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS MORE LIKELY --AND PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES - -FAR MORE LIKELY TO BE VICTIMIZED THAN ANY MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC.

FURTHERMORE, I WOULD SAY THIS PARTICULAR EXECUTIVE ORDER DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

IF YOU INCARCERATE PEOPLE, IF YOU USE INVOLUNTARY PLACEMENT IN MENTAL INSTITUTIONS, IT DOES NOT SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT SOLVES HOMELESSNESS IS HOUSING SUPPORTIVE SERVICES, HEALTH CARE AND JOBS THAT PAY LIVEABLE WAGES.

>> THERE'S A COUPLE OF LAYERS I WANT TO UNPACK HERE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SURVEYS OVER TIME, ISN'T HOMELESSNESS ON THE RISE?

>> SURE, HOMELESSNESS IS ON THE RISE, BUT IT'S ON THE RISE FOR REASONS OTHER THAN ANYTHING RELATED TO CRIMINALIZATION.

HOMELESSNESS IS ON THE RISE BECAUSE HOUSING COSTS ARE ON THE RISE.

SO THERE'S A DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN THE RISE IN HOUSING COSTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

WE SEE A RISE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE 55 AND OLDER EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN A RISE IN THESE KIND OF PRACTICES THAT CRIMINALIZE.

WHAT I MEAN IS THEY JAIL, TICKET AND FINE PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, WHICH ACTUALLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO GET OUT OF HOMELESSNESS.

I BELIEVE THAT THE CRIMINALIZATION --WE'VE SEEN 320 NEW CITIES INSTITUTE LAWS TO CRIMINALIZE HOMELESS PEOPLE SINCE THE DREADFUL SUPREME COURT DECISION LAST YEAR THAT SAID EVEN THOUGH NOWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY THERE'S ENOUGH SHELTER OR ENOUGH HOUSING FOR PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, CITIES ARE ABLE TO INSTITUTE THESE MEASURES THAT CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

>> SO WE SAW THAT IN PART AS A REACTION TO THE ENCAMPMENTS HAPPENING IN CITIES LIKE PORTLAND, OREGON, OR LOS ANGELES, ET CETERA.

THERE ARE NOW CITIES THAT WANT TO PREVENT THAT HAPPENING IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD, RIGHT.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE PERCEPTION OF REALITY, PUBLIC OPINION POLLS, INCREASING PEOPLE ARE SAYING HOMELESSNESS IS A PROBLEM.

IS THAT BECAUSE OF HOW THESE STORIES FOR EXAMPLE COME OUT ON THE NEWS OR YOUTUBE, ET CETERA.

OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE?

>> I THINK PUBLIC PERCEPTION IS GUIDED BY MISINFORMATION.

SO WE'VE DONE OUR OWN INTERNAL POLLING AND WORKED WITH OTHER GROUPS IN THE HOMELESS SECTOR.

AND WHAT WE FIND IS 70% OF THE PEOPLE DO THINK THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH HOMELESSNESS, BUT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU SHOULD FINE, ARREST OR JAIL PEOPLE.

AGAIN, THAT DOES NOT SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT WE NEED TO SOLVE HOMELESSNESS IS MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

WE NEED A DRAMATIC INFLUX OF HOUSING PRODUCTION IN THIS COUNTRY IF WE'RE GOING TO SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

REPORTS OUT OF THE NATIONAL LOW INCOME HOUSING COALITION, HOUSING WAGE IS ABOVE $20 AN HOUR, MINIMUM WAGE IS $7 AN HOUR.

PEOPLE CAN'T KEEP UP.

WE DON'T THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE LIVING UNDER BRIDGES, IN ABANDONED BUILDINGS, ENCAMPMENTS, ESPECIALLY THE ELDERLY, CHILDREN.

NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO LIVE OUTSIDE, EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A DECENT, SAFE AND AFFORDABLE HOME.

WE'RE NOT PRODUCING MORE HOUSING.

THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET ZEROED OUT HOUSING PROGRAMS, WOULD CUT TERM LIMITS FOR HOUSING, PEOPLE COULD ONLY STAY TWO YEARS.

RECIPES FOR DISASTER.

THIS ADMINISTRATION NEEDS TO REALLY USE EVIDENCE-BASED INFORMATION AND LOOK AT THE TRUE UNDERLYING STRUCTURAL CAUSES OF HOMELESSNESS.

>> WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE- BASE INFORMATION SAYING?

WHAT ARE THE PROGRAMS THAT HELP PEOPLE NOT BE HOMELESS ANYMORE?

>> GREAT QUESTION.

ONE IS PERMANENT SUPPORTIVE HOUSING PROGRAM.

WHEN RESEARCHERS HAVE LOOKED AT THAT PROGRAM, THERE IS A 90% SUCCESS RATE.

ONE OF THE PROVISIONS IN THE EXECUTIVE ORDER SAYS THAT PEOPLE UTILIZING THOSE KINDS OF PROGRAMS --THIS IS A PROGRAM WHERE PEOPLE ARE TAKEN OFF THE STREET, PUT IN THEIR HOUSING UNIT AND PROVIDED AN ARRAY OF WRAPAROUND SERVICES FOR MENTAL HEALTH, FOR SUBSTANCE ABUSE.

AND THIS PROGRAM IS DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HOMELESS THE LONGEST, WHO HAVE THE HIGHEST PROBABILITY OF NOT BEING ABLE TO GET OUT ON THEIR OWN.

AND WE KNOW THAT THOSE SERVICES, SUBSTANCE ABUSE TREATMENT, BEHAVIORAL HEALTH TREATMENT, ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE BETTER DONE FOR PEOPLE IN A STABLE UNIT.

IT'S REALLY HARD TO PROVIDE THOSE KIND OF SERVICES WHEN SOMEONE IS SLEEPING IN AN OUTDOOR LOCATION.

THAT PROGRAM, AGAIN, HAS A 90% SUCCESS RATE IN STUDIES.

SO IT JUST ABSOLUTELY BOGGLES THE MIND TO THINK THAT THAT KIND OF PROGRAM WOULD BE ONE THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS AN ISSUE WITH.

>> YOU'RE SAYING FOR EXAMPLE THE 90% SUCCESS RATE BASED ON THE FACTS OF HOW THE PROGRAMS WORK AND WHAT'S BEEN MEASURED.

BUT THERE'S ALSO THIS PERCEPTION THAT PROVIDING MORE SERVICES TO HOMELESS PEOPLE OR MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE -- THIS IS TO SOME EXTENT THEIR FAULT, THEY GOT THEMSELVES INTO THIS AND WE COLLECTIVELY SHOULD NOT BE TRYING TO GIVE THEM ASSISTANCE AFTER A CERTAIN POINT.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

>> A LOT OF THINGS ARE WRONG WITH THAT.

IN FACT, WE KNOW THAT BEHAVIORAL HEALTH ISSUES, MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, DISABILITY ISSUES, DEVELOPMENTAL DELAYS ARE MEDICAL ISSUES.

PEOPLE DON'T CAUSE THEMSELVES TO HAVE THESE KIND OF ISSUES.

SUBSTANCE ABUSE IS A DISEASE.

SO THESE ARE NOT MORAL FAILURES.

HOMELESSNESS DIDN'T INCREASE TO THE LEVEL IT IS BECAUSE PEOPLE FAILED MORALLY.

IT INCREASED BECAUSE WE STOPPED PROVIDING MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES AFTER DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION.

WE STOPPED JOBS THAT PAY IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT COSTS $20 AN HOUR IF YOU PAY 30% OF INCOME FOR HOUSING TO AFFORD TO PAY IT LONG TERM.

THESE ARE STRUCTURAL ISSUES.

IT'S NOT A PERSONAL FAILURE THERE'S OVERREPRESENTATION OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THE HOMELESS POPULATION.

AFRICAN AMERICANS, PEOPLE FROM THE NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITY ARE SEVERELY OVERREPRESENTED.

AND IT DOESN'T CORRELATE WITH POVERTY.

WE HAVE DEEP STRUCTURAL ISSUES TO SOLVE TO REDUCE HOMELESSNESS.

AND THE LAST THING ABOUT THAT, REASON WE'RE HERE --EVERY OTHER TIME, THERE'S FOUR SEGMENTS OF HOMELESSNESS IN OUR HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY.

EVERY OTHER TIME THERE HAS BEEN A RESPONSE FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT LOWERED THOSE NUMBERS, MADE THOSE NUMBERS VIRTUALLY DISAPPEAR, TALKING ABOUT NEW DEAL PROGRAMS, SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, WE'VE NOT SEEN THAT IN THE LAST 40 YEARS.

THIS IS THE LONGEST HOMELESSNESS AND WE'VE NEVER PROVIDED RESOURCES LEVEL TO THE PROBLEM.

>> AS WE SEE THE PROBLEM GETTING WORSE, IS THAT AN INDICTMENT ON THE FACT THAT OUR POLICIES ARE NOT WORKING?

MAYBE THAT'S PART OF WHAT IS MOTIVATING THIS APPROACH BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> AGAIN, I WOULD SAY THAT WHEN WE HAVE DONE THINGS THAT WOULD BE PREVENTIVE IN NATURE, PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BECOMING HOMELESS IN THE FIRST PLACE, EXPANDED HOUSING PRODUCTION, IT HAS WORKED.

WE SAW THAT DURING COVID.

WE SAW COMMUNITIES MOVE AWAY FROM CONGREGATE SHELTERS WITH HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, TO SMALLER, INDIVIDUAL SETTINGS.

WE SAW EVICTION PREVENTION DOLLARS PUT IN PLACE.

WE SAW EMERGENCY HOUSING VOUCHERS.

AND HOUSING VOUCHERS ARE ONE OF THE BEST SOLUTIONS TO HOMELESSNESS.

THE PERMANENT SUPPORTIVE HOUSING PROGRAM I TALKED ABOUT IS A GREAT PROGRAM FOR A PORTION OF THE POPULATION, IT IS NOT BE-ALL/END-ALL.

WE NEED MORE, VOUCHERS.

EVERYBODY DESERVES, AGAIN, A SAFE PLACE TO LIVE.

ANOTHER ISSUE THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER FAILS TO RECOGNIZE IS THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN WE SEE ENTER THIS POPULATION.

CERTAINLY WE DON'T CONSIDER CHILDREN IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, ALMOST 1.

5 MILLION OF THEM, CRIMINALS.

SO THERE'S A NEED TO LOOK AT THIS ISSUE COMPREHENSIVELY.

WHAT WE'VE BEEN FORCED TO DO AS A SECTOR IS CHOOSE PORTIONS OF THE POPULATION.

BECAUSE WE WERE FORCED TO OPERATE IN A SCARCITY MODEL.

THEY PICK THE POPULATION, SOMETIMES VETERANS, SOMETIMES THE CHRONICALLY HOMELESS, BUT WE'VE NEVER GOTTEN TO SCALE WITH THE RESOURCES FOR THIS ISSUE WHERE IT WAS A COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION.

I AGREE WITH YOU THE POLICIES HAVE FAILED, BUT THE POLICIES ARE NOT ON THE PART OF PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, THEY SHOULD NOT BE BLAMED BY THE GROWTH OF HOMELESSNESS, WE HAVE A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO HAVE NEVER ADDRESSED THE PROBLEM IN A COMPREHENSIVE WAY.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POPULATION OF HOMELESSNESS, IS THE PROPORTION OF PEOPLE WITH MENTAL ILLNESSES AND MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS RISING?

NUMBERS IN NEW YORK, AROUND 17%, ALMOST A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION IN CALIFORNIA.

IS THE ADMINISTRATION RIGHT TO TRY AND TARGET THIS POPULATION?

THE PRESIDENT SAYS FOR THOSE SEVERELY MENTALLY ILL AND DEEPLY DISTURBED WE'LL BRING THEM TO MENTAL INSTITUTIONS WHERE THEY BELONG WITH THE GOAL OF REINTEGRATING THEM INTO SOCIETY ONCE THEY CAN MANAGE.

>> IT'S CERTAINLY A GREAT NEED, THERE'S A PORTION OF THE POPULATION THAT SUFFERS FROM MENTAL ILLNESS, MANY SEVERE.

WE LEARNED IN THE '50s, ALMOST 70 YEARS AGO, THAT THAT WAS NOT --PUTTING LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE INTO MENTAL INSTITUTIONS WAS A FAILED POLICY.

THAT'S HOW WE GOT TO DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION.

A MUCH BETTER SOLUTION WAS SMALLER COMMUNITY-BASED FACILITIES WHERE PEOPLE GOT TO HAVE AGENCY.

BUT ADDRESSED THEIR MENTAL HEALTH AT THE SAME TIME.

WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED IS DETENTION CAMPS, PUTTING PEOPLE IN INSTITUTIONS, BASICALLY WAREHOUSING THEM.

AND THERE IS NO HOUSING ATTACHED TO THIS.

THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE.

IF YOU PUT PEOPLE IN THOSE INSTITUTIONS, I'LL REPEAT THIS, OR YOU PUT THEM IN A CORRECTION FACILITY, ONE OF THE LARGEST CONCENTRATIONS OF PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IS THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY JAIL FOR INSTANCE.

THEY DON'T HAVE HOUSING WHEN THEY LEAVE THOSE INSTITUTIONS.

SO YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING BUT DISAPPEAR PEOPLE, MADE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING TO ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS WHEN REALLY YOU'RE HIDING THE ISSUE.

BUT IT DOES NOT SOLVE HOMELESSNESS, IT REMOVES PEOPLE FROM SYSTEMS OF CARE THEY'VE ENGAGED IN TO HELP TOWARDS THEIR EVENTUAL ESCAPE FROM HOMELESSNESS.

PEOPLE ARE FORCED INTO THAT ISSUE.

THEY WANT TREATMENT, THE TREATMENT IS JUST NOT AVAILABLE.

NEW YORK TRIED TO DO A FORCED INSTITUTIONALIZATION AND FOUND THEY WERE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BEDS LESS THAN THE NEED FOR PEOPLE THAT NEEDED THAT PARTICULAR INTERVENTION.

THIS WOULD BE THE SAME EVERYWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT THAN WAREHOUSING PEOPLE.

IT DOES NOT WORK.

WE'VE SEEN HORRIFIC VIDEOS 50 YEARS AGO, AND WE DON'T WANT TO RETURN TO THAT.

BUT WE THINK THIS IS A RECIPE FOR US TO RETURN TO THAT.

>> IS THE EXECUTIVE ORDER CONSTITUTIONAL?

IS IT GOING TO BE CHALLENGED IN THE COURTS?

>> SO I THINK IT WILL BE CHALLENGED IN THE COURTS, BUT IT IS CRAFTED IN A WAY THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WILL HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF FREEDOM UNTIL THEY ACTUALLY START TO IMPLEMENT IT.

THERE CERTAINLY WILL BE CHALLENGES, BUT NOT IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT'S CRAFTED.

SO WE HAVE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH SOME OF THE LARGER LEGAL INSTITUTIONS IN THE COUNTRY, AND THOSE WITHIN THE HOMELESS SECTOR, AND WE ARE CRAFTING A STRATEGY.

THIS WON'T GO UNADDRESSED.

WE WILL PROVIDE A LEGAL RESISTANCE TO THIS PARTICULAR ORDER.

AND THAT IDEA IS BEING SHAPED NOW.

>> WHY IS THIS PERSONAL FOR YOU?

>> PART OF IT IS BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT THE OTHER ISSUE IS I'VE EXPERIENCED HOMELESSNESS MYSELF.

AND I EXPERIENCED IT TWICE.

AS A CHILD, AND AS AN ADULT.

AND SINCE THAT TIME I'VE BEEN ABLE TO SAVE TENS OF, MAYBE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

I PUT 200 PEOPLE I FOUND ON THE STREETS OF PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY MARYLAND INTO UNITS DURING COVID.

IT IS PERSONAL.

I TALK TO PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS EVERY DAY, AND I TELL YOU, I ANSWER AN EMAIL BOX THAT IS FREQUENTLY AND EVERY DAY I SEE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE REALLY, REALLY CONCERNED.

THEY'RE SAYING I'M HOMELESS AND I JUST HEARD THAT I'M GOING TO BE ARRESTED.

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

THOSE ARE THE THINGS I'M HEARING IN OUR INFO BOX.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE STORIES TOUCHES ME BECAUSE OF MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE HOMELESS AND BE HARASSED WHILE I WAS ON THE STREET.

SO IT REALLY HITS HOME ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

AND I AM COMMITTED TO DOING EVERYTHING I CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT WE PUSH BACK AGAINST THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER.

>> EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS, DONALD WHITEHEAD, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, I APPRECIATE YOU BRINGING ATTENTION TO THIS ISSUE, IT'S SO, SO IMPORTANT.