AMNA NAWAZ: Today is the deadline for the# estimated 4,200 active-duty transgender## military members to accept what the Defense# Department calls voluntary separation.

Those## who volunteer to leave may be eligible for# separation pay.

Transgender troops who don't## leave voluntarily will be kicked out, and whether# they get separation pay remains to be seen.

Earlier this week, Nick Schifrin spoke# to two transgender servicemen about the## choice they face to leave the service# or stay and fight it out in the courts.

NICK SCHIFRIN: In one of President# Trump's first executive actions,## he declared that transgender service# members corrode military effectiveness## and -- quote -- "Adoption of a gender# identity inconsistent with an individual## sex conflicts with a soldier's commitment to an# honorable, truthful, and disciplined lifestyle."

Now, following legal battles, the Defense# Department is moving forward to expel## service members -- quote -- "with a# current diagnosis or history of or## exhibiting symptoms consistent with gender# dysphoria," which is officially defined as## six months of marked incongruence between# a person's experience and assigned gender.

Last month, Secretary of Defense# Pete Hegseth put the ban this way,## criticizing what he calls previous# policies that undermine military readiness.

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. Defense Secretary: We# are leaving wokeness and weakness behind,## no more pronouns, no more climate change# obsession, no more emergency vaccine mandates,## no more dudes in dresses.

We're# done with that (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

NICK SCHIFRIN: For a perspective, we# turn to Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell,## who has been in the Navy since 2011# and is an intelligence analyst.## He's choosing to leave the# military ahead of the deadline.

And 2nd Lieutenant Nic Talbott is a platoon leader# of a military police unit in the Army Reserve.

He## joined the Army a little over a year ago and# is suing the government over its policy and is## staying in the military, despite the deadline,# and therefore faces involuntary separation.

Thanks very much, both of you.# And I should say ahead of time## that the opinions you're going to express, I know,## are personal opinions and not those of the# Defense Department or your military services.

Ryan Goodell, let me start with you.

You are a cryptologic technician collection,# which is to say you collect and analyz.. communications.

Why are you taking the# separation?

And was this a hard decision?

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL,# U.S. Navy: Yes, absolutely.

It## has been an incredibly difficult decision.

Honestly, seeing the opportunities and just seeing# the outside, right, because I have been in the## military for almost 14 years, seeing the outside,# I was like, you know what, I actually think that## I'm going to put a little bit of control into# this, what feels like an uncontrollable situation.

NICK SCHIFRIN: The military# calls what you're choosing## to do voluntary separation.# Is that what it feels like?

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL: Certainly# not.

It definitely doesn't feel voluntary.

So I reenlisted back in December# for a reenlistment bonus,## and clearly stated in the memo I may# have to pay that back.

And that... NICK SCHIFRIN: If you were to# choose not to leave by the deadline?

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL:# Correct.

If I chose the involuntary route,## I would be liable to pay that back.# And so that felt pressure enough to## help steer me in that -- quote,# unquote -- "voluntary direction."

NICK SCHIFRIN: Nic Talbott, you enlisted as a# reservist last March and you became an officer## in January, but you have actually wanted# to join the military for a long time.

Why?

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT, U.S. Army# Reserve: Joining the military is## something that I have felt compelled# to do fo.. And as I got older and became more experienced# and really gained some expertise in some areas## that are critical to what the military does,# that calling to serve has just grown in me.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And, at this# point, you're the lead plaintiff## in the first case against the# policy.

The judge sided with you,## but ultimately this policy is going forward# because of ruling by the Supreme Court.

Why did you choose to sue and why are you# choosing to fight to stay in the military?

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT: So this was my# second time being involved in a lawsuit## challenging this type of a ban.

Back in 2017, I# was one of the plaintiffs in Stockman v. Trump.

So, this time around, becoming reinvolved in# pursuing this fight was really a no-brainer## for me.

And now that I have been given# the chance to go out and meet the marks## and exceed the standards, I have proven# that I am able to be here and able to## keep up with other people and put on the# uniform and do my job every single day.

I can't, in good conscience, just give it# up, especially with no benefit or incentive## to do so.

As a reservist, as somebody# who's so new to the military, there is## nothing about the so-called voluntary process# that benefits me in any way, shape, or form.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Ryan Goodell, as I said,# the Defense Department makes this argument,## that individuals who have a current# diagnosis or history of or exhibit## symptoms consistent with gender dysphoria# are incompatible with the high mental and## physical standards necessary for military service.

What do you say to that argument?

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL: I would# say that, honestly, I have become more## mentally sound since transitioning,# because, before I had a label, right,## for what I was feeling on the inside, I was# essentially battling a war within myself.

I would be a rock star at# work, doing great things,## getting high marks on all my evaluations, but# then I would come home and the voices inside## my head would get very loud and tell me that# you're living a lie, this isn't who you really## are.

And I could hide that at work, because,# in the military, you're a uniform, right?

The Navy colors are blue and gold, and that's all# you see.

Realizing and pursuing my truth has made## me more mentally stable.

My depression is gone.# I'm a better leader.

I can think more clearly,## I don't have those nagging self-doubt# moments anymore.

I know who I am,## and I lead very effectively.

And that's why, in# part, I was chosen to be a chief petty officer.

NICK SCHIFRIN: You received your gender# dysphoria diagnosis in June 2018.

You## started transitioning in December 2019.# What support did the military give you,## whether it was the institution# or your fellow service members?

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL:# My fellow service members have been## nothing but supportive.

I draw# my strength from them.

They're## the reason I serve every day.

And# they have just been incredible.

They don't allow folks to# look at me the wrong way.## If they hear somebody misgendering or# using -- saying anything disparaging,## they're pretty quick to knock it out.

And I have# had that support up and down the chain of command.

NICK SCHIFRIN: When you hear# Nic sticking it out, basically,## wanting to stay in until they force# him out, what's your response to that?

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL: It's incredibly# selfless.

And I think that comes from a lot of## self-discipline to be willing to put yourself on# the line.

And that's what we need in the military.

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT: We transgender# service members are living proof that## we belong in the uniforms that we have worked# so hard for.

We have earned our spots.

We have## earned our ranks.

We have earned our awards.# And our service should speak for itself.

NICK SCHIFRIN: You began your# transition in 2012.

What was## it like to serve having already transitioned?

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT: Nobody that I# have served with thus far has known that## I am transgender unless I have told them or they# have seen it posted on the Internet somewhere.

At the end of the day, what our# fellow service members care about## is whether or not we can put on our# uniforms and perform our duties.

NICK SCHIFRIN: A senior defense# official told reporters last month,## the primary means of identification# for those who do not voluntarily## separate will be through a service# member's periodic health assessment,## which tracks whether the service member's health# is -- quote -- "consistent with future service."

You, of course, are very public, so your## situation is perhaps different.

But what# is your sense of how the military will## identify people who do not choose to separate?

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT: As of now, unfortunately,## it's not entirely clear what that# process is going to look like for us.

NICK SCHIFRIN: What are you going# to do if you're forced to leave?

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT: I will figure# something out.

I am the kind of person that,## when one door closes in front of me,# I look for another door to open up.

I do like to emphasize the fact that# this fight is not over.

We still## have cases going on.

We have cases# going through the courts right now,## and this is not the end.

In the grand scheme# of things, sometimes, you lose a few battles## here and there and you still win the war at the# end.

And that's what we're facing right now.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Ryan Goodell,## I see you shaking your hea.. CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL: So, I would love# to take advantage of the significant investment## that the Navy has made in me and leverage the# skills that I have gained over my 13.5 years## to stay in this area and continue to serve# the nation, just in a civilian capacity.

I would love to stay within the intelligence# community.

It is part of a larger fight to serve## in any capacity.

And I would# like to continue to advocate## for transgender service members# and also transgender Americans.

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT: I think there are# a lot of very strong opinions out there## in the world about transgender# people and the LGBTQ community.

And I think the big takeaway at the end# of the day is, we're all human beings.## We all have our strengths, our weaknesses,# our faults, and our hopes and our dreams.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Nic Talbott, Ryan# Goodell, thank you very much to both.

2ND LT. NICOLAS TALBOTT: Thank you so much.

CHIEF PETTY OFFICER RYAN GOODELL: Thanks.