Tonight.

Part three first degree murder trial in pace for the defense.

Arnold Botello was stabbed to death on a Thanksgiving night with a turkey carving knife.

Arrested for his murder was Robert Sandoval.

In this program, you will see the American system of justice at work.

This is the actual first degree murder trial of Robert Sandoval.

Robert Sandoval, Arnold Botello and others spent thanksgiving in this house eating, drinking and fighting near midnight, Sandoval stabbed Botello.

Sandoval says it was self defense.

In my opionon, they were coming at me On the table, there was a knife.

I picked the knife and and started toward the door.

Next thing I know Arnolds on the floor.

I DID stab him, I guess I had the knife in my hand.

There was blood on it.

Arnold Botellos family does not believe it was self-defense.

I hope he gets what he deserves.

What do you thinkhe deserves?

be It should be Whatever The law goes by.

Life in prison.

Life in prison or else death penalty.

The prosecutor does not believe it was self-defense.

There was lots of chaos that day People shot his van & he leaves and he goes home after telling some of them hes going to blow them away.

I think were his words.

And if he had a shotgun or not we don't know but we know he came back with a chainsaw.

And that to me is not self defense.

At that point he becomes the aggressor and whatever the other people did was wrong But it doesn't give him an excuse to come back with a chainsaw to do heaven knows what.

And when it doesnt start, he goes and gets a foot long knife and stabs Arnold botello.

The defense attorney believes that it might have been self-defense, and the defense has the advantage that the burden of proof is on prosecution.

I don't think the District Attorney can disprove self defense.

I think theres enough here that you have to believe self-defense might have been the actual case.

And again, I don't have to prove defense.

They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it wasn't self-defense.

The prosecution has presented its evidence.

First, the police officer who arrested Sandoval.

I asked him what he was doing with the chainsaw He said he planned to cut him up in the apartment.

And he said he couldn't get the chainsaw started, so he got mad and threw it back outside.

He said he then went into the kitchen and got a knife in the kitchen, & went back & stabbed the victim The defense cross examines.

You testified today that Mr.

Sandoval told you that he went back in the van and got a chainsaw.

Yes, sir.

In the report that you wrote, from your note within an hour after it happened you didn't mention the chainsaw at all.

No, sir.

And you testified today, that Mr.

Sandoval said he was going to go into that apartment and cut them up with a chainsaw.

Yes, sir.

So again, you reported November 26th that you did within an hour of the interview there's no mention at all in that report about the statement, I'm going to go in there and cut them up.

No, sir.

Glen Hudgens, eyewitness to the stabbing, described the actions of an angry Sandoval the night of the stabbing.

He drove his van right up on the sidewalk.

Tell us what you recall happening after that.

Bobby coming in with a chainsaw trying to start it.

Hes yelling about who shot holes in his van and It wouldnt start, he threw it outside.

He went to the kitchen and come back.

And.

Arnold was standing up and thats when he got stabbed.

The defense cross-examines.

So you're sitting there having a nice evening having a few beers.

Youve had hassles with Mr.

Sandoval all day long, Mclanes told you that hes going to come back and get you guys.

Hes on the front porch with a chainsaw.

And youre just sitting there drinking a beer.

The stabbing just kind of happens?

Right.

and you had nothing to do with it?

Nothing.

As you indicated You like to fight at the drop off a hat.

And you're denying under oath, that you threatened to kill Mr.

Sandoval back in the summer.. That's correct.

That's correct.

The prosecution has presented a case for first degree murder.

Now, in order to avoid a conviction the defense, must create doubt about the prosecution's evidence.

The stakes for Robert Sandoval are high.

Ok.

Mr.

Eisner you may call your first witness.

The defense calls a clerk from the hospital where Botello died.

They want to introduce a document which shows that Botello had 1 $20 bill in his wallet.

The prosecution objects As we know there was a dispute over a $20 bill at the 404 club No other money was indicated in that wallet.

Just a $20 bill.

I think its provative value is very great in this case.

It goes to show Mr.

Botello had nothing to do with this.

A passive person The judge will permit the document to be introduced.

During a lunch recess Sandoval will be prepared for his testimony What's most important thing I told you about when youre testifying?

No discussion about self defense, protect myself.

What else did I tell you?

Dont fight with the D.A.

Can you live with that one?

Yeah I don't know approve of these tactics but I guess I have to.

You gotta let him do what hes gonna do.

If you fight with him, The reason he wants you to fight is to show the Jury that you're a violent asshole.

And if he can show that to the jury, youre dead.

Does that makes sense.

Yes it does.

Okay.

If he can show the jury that in a Courtroom, he can get you pissed off, to convince a Jury that when youre drunk on Thanksgivin somebody shot your van youre go na lose your mind Right?

So don't fight with the D.A.

What did I tell you about when you sit in the witnes chair Look directly at the Jury.

Why do I want you to do that?

So they can look at me.

And they're the ones youre talking to.

It's not me.Right?

I'm not going to decide your case.

The Judge wont decide your case So if youre talking to us youre wasting your time.

Youre gonna be nervous.

Play like its just some friends & you want to tell them what happened.

In the bar, you saw yesterdays demonstration with Crow, in his face Thats the way it happened right Right in my face.

What were they Right in my face.

What were they saying to you?

She says they called you a dirty Mexican.

Tell the jury exactly what they called you Glen wouldve been more credible if he said exactly what hes attributed to you.

You Motherfuckers Im gonna blow you away.

Wouldve sounded better than he was cursing The Jury doesnt get the flavor.

You see, his testimony wasn't as strong because he didnt say exactly what you said You don't have to worry about offending the Jury.

Theyve heard it before.

Okay.Were you calling names too?

Probably.

Were you mad?

Sure.

I don't say, wouldnt you be too I don't want you to say that.

Sure, ok.

Okay, fine.

I dont want you to say that to the D.A.

you would be too you son of a bitch.

Theyd see you're fighting.

You're fighting right now.

by saying, wouldnt you?

That's fighting.

I don't want to hear that because I know you were mad.

You should have been.

Nobodys criticizing because you were mad.

But if you go in there and tell the jury you weren't mad they wont believe a thing and if you fight with the D.A.

the jury will believe you couldve killed somebody.

You gotta be right in the middle Okay, okay.

Maybe we get some tranquilizers.

No, no, I dont need those.

Wake up Mr.

Sandoval.

(laughs).

Okay.

Lets talk about what happened when you went inside.

This is what it comes down to.

This is it.

Explain to me what happened.

Arnold was by the door.

Crow was coming at me from the fireplace.

and John was I think he took a step at me.

Im not sure, you know.I turned I couldn't get away from the door.

I said Im outta here.

And thats it.

Tell us what you did with the knife.

I threw it.

Well, afterwards.

After I stabbed him What happened from the time you picked it up and threw it down?

picked it up and threw it down?

remember sticking it in him?

I don't remember the last time for that.

And they said that he said something I don't, I don't know, remeber him saying anything.

Remember where you got the knife Coffee table.

Did you go into the kitchen.

No Did you walk by the window?

No.

Point is,I want to say, I don't know where I got the knife.

It all happened so fast.

I told Arnold, Get out of the way.

Get out of the door, Im out of here.

Next thing I know, I am standing there holding the knife.

And blood on my hands I remember throwing the knife down.

I threw it back like that and just sat down.

So, the knife was found right by the front door?

Did you throw it way across the room?

Or just at your feet?

I jusrt dropped it.

Didnt even throw it.

Yeah, I didn't even throw it at all.

You just dropped it.

When you say throwing it that suggests that you threw across the room and that's not what you did.

You dropped it, right?

The word throw sounds different then the word drop.

It sounds better to say you dropped it.

Because thats what you did.

Isnt it?

I don't to put words in your mouth.

I dropped it.Thats what happen People will turn words around.

If you start saying throw, the D.A.

will say you threw the knife across the room.

Throw fits right into their statment.

After that, you Police came andyou told them that you stabbed him.

But I said nothing else after that.

There goes your case.

That's it.

Send him to the gas chamber.

I cant help it.

Yes you can.

You got an hour to help it.

How long we been telling you what to say and not to say?

The defense attorney has told Sandoval not to talk about what he said to police moments after he stabbed botello.

Sandoval did not tell police at that time that the killing was in self defense, and the defense attorney believes that the prosecutor will not be permitted to question Sandoval about this unless Sandoval himself.

mentions it.

Well, I see all these people giving me different stories.

I didnt say nothing.

Ive told you now, so many times Im afraid that the D.A., Well you dont have to testify.

If you dont, the Jury will probably come back with manslaughter.

If you want a chance at self defense, yougotta testify.

You can get 1st degree murder.

Im not worried about that.

Ill testify.

I'm going to stop with you sitting down & awaiting Police.

Dont talk at all about what you said to Officer Gasman If you say it, youre gone.

Youre really scaring me.

Well see.

Am I giving you a hard time?

Starting to think you dont believe me again.

I believe you but Im trying to tell you how to get it across so the Jury will believe you.

Im frustrated because youre listening to my advice.

Im trying to but.. Theres a lot of things that run through my mind, too Youre on one end of it?

I on the other.

No Im not.

I'm sitting there watching that D.A.

to play with all these people that are making false statements Im there telling truth.

And hes gonna tear mine apart.

Dont you think Ive taken care of his witnesses?

Yes.

If you dont have faith in me.

That I've done that.

you go ahead and do you want & you can ruin your case and you can go down.But if you that evans & I have taken care of witnesses for you to this point in our job then you do your job, ok?

I believe in you and I want to walk out of that court room.

I have a lot to lose.

more than just time.

Like what?

My kids, never seeing them again Never see them again?

Wouldnt want them to see me in prison.

Youre 40 years old now if you get a sentence of 20 years What's that going to mean to you?

I don't know if I can do it.

You think that you might not survive a 20 year sentence?.

With the things that I hear happen there, no.

What do you expect from the D.A.

this afternoon?

I expect him to tear me apart.

I hope I stand up to him.

Like now, I said the wrong word again.

I don't know, I know I'm I'm hoping to find strength The defense now calls the police firearms examiner who examined the gun found in Hudgens home the night of the stabbing.

Shots were fired into Sandovals van while Sandoval himself was very near walking back from the 404 club.

Hudgens and his companion, McLane testified that Hudgens gun, which they had fired earlier in the day, was jammed before they went to the 404 club.

Did you determine whether or not the rifle was operable?

The rifle did fire, yes.

Did you have any trouble with any jamming on the rifle?

At one time, the spent casing did not completely clear the ejection port, causing it to misfire.

So would you say it was easy or difficult to unjamit at the time It was easy to unjam.

At the time you examined the weapon, was it loaded?

No, sir.

Do you know in what condition it was at the moment it was seized by police officers at the scene of this incident.

No, Sir.

I dont.

You don't know at the time it was seized whether or not it was jammed or not.

No.

I dont.

Is it fair to say, detective, that it's a good deal easier for you to unjam a firing mechanism then it might be for the lay person.

Possibly could be, yes.

Especially if you were sober when you did it and the lay person had had something to drink right?

I suppose.If someone were able to using that weapon, put three bullets into a pattern about the size of a basketball or a softball at distance of of 40 or 50 feet woukd that suggest they were profficient with that weapon?

Yes, sir.

The jury will now hear this woman read the testimony given in an earlier hearing of Vincent Wear he was with Sandoval and Hudgins when Sandoval as resident manager of an apartment house they both lived, had to evict Hudgins.

Wear said that Hudgens was angry about the eviction and he said he was going to kill Bobby.

Okay, so he went and got a knife out of the kitchen, and I took the knife from him and sat down and talked to him.

Okay.

And he was still he was really mad upset said about this, Did you tell Mr.

Sandoval at that time that Mr.

Hudgens was talking about killing him?

He didn't know nothing about that until after we had after I had seen him in jail.

No further questions.

Thank you Mr.

Wear.

Mr.

Wear you've known Mr.

Sandoval for about 8 or 9 years.

Is that true?

Yes.

Is it fair to say you're pretty good friend?

Yes.

For the last few weeks, at least, you've been living in close proximity with Mr.

Sandoval, haven't you?

8 days.

I got to the county jail a week ago.

We eat at the same table and live in the same cellblock, in the same county jail.

You indicated that it wasn't until within the last eight days that you told Mr.

Sandoval that Crow or Mr.

Hudgens, back in April, had expressed a desire to do Mr.

Sandoval harm.

Isn't that right?

Yes.

When Mr.

Hudgens got this knife did you call the police & tell them that somebody was threatening to kill somebody?

I took it away from him.

You didn't take it seriously?

Yes, I did.

Is it correct that the last occasions when you saw Mr.

Hudgens and Mr.

Sandoval together, they were acting friendly toward one another?

Yes.

Now, the last eight days youve been incarcerated with Mr.

Sandoval, And you've had occasion to talk to him about the facts of this case.

Yes, I have.

Did you tell you he was mad at the people in the house because one of them had shot some holes in his van?

No, he didn't say that.

He told me that somebody had taken 20 bucks of his off the bar.

He said they shot up his van.

He said he went and got his chainsaw.

That's right.

Did he tell you whether he got it out of the van and had to go anywhere else to get it?

I don't recall.

To tell you the truth, I think he said he got it out of the van, but Im not sure.

Did he tell you that he was very drunk?

As to how dark they was.

I don't really know.

He said he didn't remember what had happened.

He told you he didn't really remember what happened when Mr.

Botello got stabbed?

He said the guy was in front of him and the other guy was behind him, and he wasn't sure if the guy pushed him into him, or he could have stabbed him or anything like that.

He said he didn't remember.

Mr.

Wear did you consider yourself a friend of Mr.

Hudgens back in April of 1982?

Yes.

Do you still consider yourself a friend of his?

Yes.

I have no further questions.

Thank you.

Judge, can we approach the bench In hearing mr.

Wears testimony it occurs to me that hes basically given evidence that I think supports self-defense instructions or at least some of the instructions, I tendered to the court at this point, I want to be able to really advise Mr.

Sandoval, as to his need if there is one to testify.

And I wonder if the court would perhaps indicate the court's position if Mr.

Sandoval were not to testify on the giving of those instructions that Ive tendered.

The court feels that there is evidence no matter how slight of self defense.

And would probably give self defense instructions.

So, you can talk to the defendent more if you wish.

Thank you.

Judge, I do have an entry issue to talk about.

As long as we confine our direct examination to the events up to the time police are walking up to the steps I think it would be impermissable to allow cross examination on events that occcured after that.. I disagree strongly, your honor.

I think what somebody tells the police within 15 or 10 minutes of an incident like this, which is relevant to and germaine to the all of the incidents that we've been talking about throughout this trial, cannot through a manipulation of precisely what question are asked and what questions are not asked be limited and evaded.

And I don't know that maybe Mr.

Sandoval will go back for a year in history prior to this, and then wishes to just stop things before the police arrived.

And I think that if he presents himself to testify to his action concerning the night in question and presents himself to his statements concerning the night in question Judge, again, hes gonna be saying that you didn't tell officer Gassman that it was self defense Thats a direct comment on his right to remain silent He invoked his right to remain silent.

I found that he did not until at the police station.

But at the station he did.

So we're given a jury, a half truth judge.

And unless we open the door by having Mr.

Sandoval say, I told Officer Gassman it was self-defense, then there's no way they can get into that.

Ill rule that he made a knowing, voluntary and intelligent waiver of his right to remain silent, and he is subject to cross examination on anything he said or failed to say to the police.

I want to make sure my objection is clear For the record, I think that it's going to be beyond the scope of direct examination & will violate Mr.. Sandovals right to remain silent & due process clause of both the federal and state constitutions.

The jury has returned.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are experiencing this construction noise on our roof.

I would hope that you could just put it aside and concentrate on whats being said, rather than the outside noise.

Call your witness.

Thank you.

Call the defendant, Robert Sandoval.

Do you swear your testimony will be the whole truth and nothing but truth?

Yes.

Mr.

Sandoval isn't it correct that you've got a felony conviction from 1966 for the possession of marijuana in California?

Yes, sir.

It is.

The van that weve heard so much about in this case.

Did you use that in your work at all?

Yes, I did.

Everyday.

Would you say that the van was important to your work?

Very important.

It had every tool I needed in it Including a chainsaw?

Yes, sir.

What would you use it for?

Shrubs, trees, pruning trees etc Theres been some talk about a garage that you had some stuff in Was your chainsaw in the garage?

No, sir.

It was in your van on Thanksgiving?

Yes, Sir.

Mr.

Sandoval, on Thanksgiving did you own a gun of any kind?

No, sir.

Id like to talk to you for a minute about Glen Hudgens.

Would you say that he was a friend of yours?

Glen Hudgens.

Would you say that he was a friend of yours?

At this time, no.

Back then?

Possibly.

Yes.

Did you ever talk with him about him being a fighter?

Yeah.

The conversation came up.

Did you fight with him once?

Yes, I did.

Have you ever seen him drunk before Thanksgiving?

Yes.

Quite a few times How would he act?

Seemed like he went out his way to aggravate people.

Sandoval's attorney questions him about the time he evicted Hudgins.

He called me a dirty Mexican Took a swing at me.

Did he make any threats to you at that time when you left?

No.

Was there a time where he said something to the effect that I'll get you, you dirty Mexican?

I object to the leading question Objection sustained.

Mr.

Sandoval What, if anything,did Mr.

Hudgin say to you about you being a dirty Mexican?

When told me that Ill get even.

You dirty Mexican Given your experience with him do you have an opinon as to Mr.

Hudgins character for being a violent person?

Yes I know he is.

What's your opinion of Mr.

McLean as being a violent person?

The same as Glens, I think hes violent.

You didn't know.

Mr.

Botello very well on Thanksgiving?

No.

Based on the contact you had with him do you have any opinion as whether or not Arnold was a fighter?

To look at him, whether or not Arnold was a fighter?

To look at him, yes.

They now move into questioning the events of Thanksgiving Day.

Describe for the jury what you did when you got there.

We had a mix drink & beer, some whiskey.

A little hash.

What do you think your state of sobriety was about 5:00.

I was high I knew what I was doing, but I wasn't wiped out.

Earlier in the day, did you have any disputes with Hudgins?

No.

We ere kidding around about him cooking And so everything was going good, he cooked the meal I kidded him about it, you know, told him the turkey probably would be wrong.

Were you trying to pick a fight with him then?No Good natured joking around?

Like how youd rib you know a friend.

Well, what caused you to wind up out on the porch fighting with him?

The eviction came up.

Was there any talk with Mr.

Hudgins later in the afternoon about you contributing some money?

Oh, yeah.

It was about 6:00 and I was getting ready to leave.

It came up that, I drank all their booze ate the food and didnt contribute anything.

And that's when I said, I still have to go.

I got 20 bucks,Ill buy you some drinks at the bar.

After that, I'm going home.

Did you have different bills or a $20 bill?

One $20 bill.

Describe for the jury what happened at the bar?

The waitress brought the round I put the money on the table, I turned around,the money was gone I said, whos got the 20, Crow jumped up and said you saying we stole your money?

Then John jumped and I stood up and John had a shot glass, in his hand and he put it in my face and said I will shove down your throat, he said, you accuse me of taking your 20 and I told Crow Look, somebody took the money.

I don't know who did.

but youre responsible for it.

Crow said if you think I took your money let's go outside and settle it.

We went outside.

He called me a a lying Mexican they were calling me that.

Were you cursing back?

Yeah, I said you raunchy sons of guns I invite you over.

or you guys invite me for Thanksgiv & pull this?

I was mad.

Arnold wasnt involved in this?

No.

Not that I know In fact, hadnt you & Arnold been getting along pretty well at the bar.

Yeah, we were getting along.

We were just sitting there.

You heard Mr.

Hudgins say that you picked up a fork when you went outside.

Yes I did.

Did you pick up a fork?

No, I didn't.Were you yelling at each other?

Yeah, that's when I seen Arnold and John come outta the bar.. I said, well, forget it.

I just forget it and walked back into the bar.

When left were you upset?

How were you feeling?

I was angry, I was upset.

What happened next?

I got about.

to the front bumper of my van and I heard, Plunk, plunk, plunk and then I heard 3 bangs looked up & saw 3 holes in my van.

I looked across the street and somebody was ducking out the doorway in Crows apartment.

And that's when I headed across the street.

I just I don't know, I donn't even know why I did it but I went in the house.

Can you tell the jury then who said what happened when youre inside the house?

Crow had the rifle.

between his legs like that.

And I walked straight up to Crow And I tell him I said no, I said, I just don't know what's going on.

And I said, I say you take my money, you hassle me.

So now you shoot my van whats next, blow my head up?

So, I grab the rifle.

and he just stood looking at me I told him, I'm holding you responsible for this & Ill be back tomorrow When he grabbed the gun where was it?

he was sitting down like this and had the rifle lke this.

And and I walked up to him and I put it to my face.

To my face.

So why why'd you do that?

I don't know.

Were you pretty pissed off?

Yes.

I was.

Did you say anything about coming back & blowing him away?

No, I never said that.

When you left what did you feel what were you plans?

To go home.

Just to go home and come back & talk to him in the morning.

I wasn't getting nowhere with him all that night.

The booze Where did you go from there?

I went home.

Did you have any kind of difficulties with your car on the way home?

Yes.

It's stalled on me three different times.

Did you stop anywhere else between their apartment and yours?

No.

When you go back to your apartment what happened?

I filled the radiator up.

I see Gails lights on I remembered about Gail I knocked on her door but there was no answer.

I figured, I'd better go back & tell ‘em that theyd have to get my vehicle in opertion.

Because I needed the Van Were you mad then?

Yes, I was mad.

I was just starting out in business and you know I'm on my foot.

I was mad, yes.

What did you do?

I drove back and John was standing at the front door when I pulled up and I got out of van.

And the van is steaming I said, what did yall do to the radiator?

John didnt say anything I said, if guys aint gonna reimburse me and this damage, I said, Ill get my chainsaw and tear up your furniture.

So, I went back into the van got my chainsaw, I started up the stairs.

And John says, wait a minute.

He said, let's talk it over.

And I said, look, all I want to do is get away from you.

And I said, I want to make sure somebody reimburses me on all this youve done to me.

He said, come on in.

We'll talk it over.

I threw the saw over the side of the railing.

That's your chainsaw there.

Yes And its a tool that, you use for work.

Yes Yet you threw it off the balcony, there?

I wasnt in my right mind then.

So I wasn't level headed to set something down.

I dont think anybody would be Did you go into the kitchen?

No, sir, I said I got I have to have my van fixed.

You got to make arraingements for it.Everyone was yelling Where was the gun, the 22 rifle?

I didn't see it at that time So what happened here?

Well, I mean, I turned around to this side bedroom Colt stuck his head out the door and, you know, you can see his face.

What did you see on his face?

He was all swelled up he had washed some of the blood off but he had a black eye and a cut lip.

And that's when I realized where I was.

John was looking at me, and I was looking at him, and he took a step towards me and he said, I did that to him.

And.

I turned around and told Arnold I remember telling Arnold.

get out of the doorway next thing I know, get out of the doorway next thing I know, I have the knife in my hand.

and I dropped it.

Do you actually remember picking up the knife?

No.

You know where you picked the knife up from?

No I didn't.

It just things went just one right after the other.

I heard John behind me next thing I know I got the knif Arnold was down in the doorway.

And I dropped the knife.

I just sat down.

Do you remember Whats goingthrough your mind when you picked up a knife?

I thought they were gonna come down on me.

I thought, when John made the statement You know that I did that he gave me the impression, I was next Then you stayed and waited for the police?

Yes, yes.

I sat down, so.

No further questions Thank you, Mr.

Sandoval.

Your witness.

You had opinions that Hudgins is violent?

Yes, sir.

I did.

Mclane is a violent person?

Yes.

Mr.

Botello was a violent person Yes, sir.

And you went ahead and went over there and had Thanksgiving dinner.

Is that right?

Yes, sir.

After the eviction matter, you got into a scuffle with, Mr.

Hudgins?

Yes.

You indicated in testimony with Mr.

Eisner that he invited you into the apartment & took a swing at you?

Yes, sir.

Isn't it true that in that event, you got the best of him?

I don't know if you'd call it the best of it.

Just flipping him on the floor.

Well, you flipped him down on the floo & he didn't want any more of it did he?

Well, that's when a tenant down the hall said she was gonna call the cops.

Thats what stopped it A couple of weeks prior to Thanksgiving Mr.

Hudgins invited you to Thanksgiving dinner?

Yes.

And you werent afraid of him?

I mean, you wouldn't go over to somebody's house for Thanksgiving dinner if you were afraid would you?

No, sir.

So the answer is you were not afraid of him.No You saw that great quantity alcohol that they had for Thanksgiving didn't you?

Yes, sir.

You saw all these people there that you thought in your opinion, were violent?

Yes, sir.

And during that afternoon you were drinking too.

Yes, sir.

Smoking hash too The quantity he said they had.

During the whole day as your testimony you didn't have any trouble.

with Mr.

Botello.

Isn't that right?

None at all.

Were you also firing the rifle into the logs & into the basement walls and everything like everybody else was?

No, sir.

You never fired that rifle is taht your testimony?

Yes.

You never did?

No, Sir.

Now, Gail Myers testified that you were teasing Mr.

Hudgins and were abusive to him.

And that led to the first fight.

Is she right?

No, sir.

So, you disagree with that?

Yes, sir.

She said Mr.

Botello was pssive & quiet during the time she was there.

Was she right about that.

Yes, sir.

Did you hear Officer Gassman testify that when he interviewed you in his police car, you said you pulled a U-turn up onto the sidewalk area in front of 36 E 4th Avenue and went right in there then.

And that's been stabbing ocurred Did you hear him testify to that Yes, sir.

I did.

Did you tell him that in his police car?

No, Sir I think he's mistaken.

You think he's wrong about that?

I think he's mistaken, Sir.

He also said that you got a chainsaw and you went inside to cut him up.

Did you, in fact, tell him that in the police car that night?

No, Sir he's mistaken about that.

Hes also mistaken about that?

Thats your testimony?

Yes, sir.

In the interview that you had with Officer Gassman you didn't tell him that you had been there all day partying and eating with these people?

No, sir.

I didn't.

You also didn't tell him that you had left after the shots were fired at the van and came back a half an hour an hour later.

Isn't that right?

I dont recall saying that, no.

In fact, what you did that night after the shots were fired at the van was to leave and then to come back a half an hour to an hour later.

Yes, sir.

But you didnt tell him that.

No Isn't it also true Mr.

Sandoval that you told Mr.

Wear that you didn't remember how the stabbing occured?

Yes, sir.

Is it also true that that you told him you were extremely mad that they had shot holes in the van?

Yes, sir.

I wouldn't say extremely.

I told them I was mad.

You testified a number of times on direct examination that you were angry that you werent in your right mind and things like that.

At the time you went back in there the second time.

Is that correct?

I was angry.

Confused yes.

And.

Upset, irritable yes.

Isnt the reason that you went back in there the second time to get revenge for somebody that had shot up your van.

I didn't go in with a chainsaw, Sir.

You went up into the porch with a chainsaw by your own own testimony didnt you?

Yes All right.

Yes.

At the time I had in mind to cut up furnitur You had in mind to cut up people too?

No, sir, If you had in mind, a chainsaw would be a pretty good thing to do it with.

Yes.

I wouldnt know that, Sir.

Well, you used that saw you testified on many occasions to cut limbs to cut trees.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

Any doubt that it'd be pretty effective if you want to cut up people with it?

It probably would, but I use it for a tool If the saw was in the van, you really wouldn't need to leave 36th E 4th Avenue you really wouldn't need to leave 36th E 4th Avenue No, Sir If it was in the van at the time the first time you came back when the shots were fired at the van according to your testimony.

You could have gone right in with it then.

Couldn't you?

Yes, sir.

So isn't it true that you had to go somewhere else to get that van or to get that saw Mr.

Sandoval?

No, sir.

So its your testimony that although it was in your van at the time you didnt go in with it the first time you heard shots?

Yes, sir.

Now, when the police arrived after the stabbing.

You were advised of your rights Werent you?

Yes, sir.

And Officer Gassman asked you if you wanted to talk about it.

Didn't he?

Yes he did.

And you talked to him and you wanted to talk to me about it?

Didn't you?

To a point, Sir.

What do you mean to a point?

Well, I made the statements.

You made the statements that he said you made?

Not all of them, Sir I told Officer Gassman the shots were fired at my van.

That they had stolen $20 off of me.

Did you tell the police everything about the stabbing that youve told his jury No, sir.

Matter of fact, you didn't tell them anything that youve told this jury?.

I told the officer, I stabbed him.

And told him also,that you went around did a U-turn on the sidewalk and went right inside with a chainsaw.

No, Sir.

Hes mistaken He's mistaken about that?

Yes He's mistaken about you wanting to cut people up.

Yes, sir.

You didn't tell Officer Gassman anything about having to stab Mr.

Botello because he was in the doorway?

Did you?

I didn't say I stabbed because he was in the doorway I told him I stabbed him.

Well, he asked he why you did it.

I don't recall that, sir.

Do you recall testifying in this matter at a prior proceeding on May 20th in this very court room?

Yes, sir.

Do you remember this question?

And this answer?

The question, When you talked, what did you tell him at that point?

We're talking about you & Officer Gassman.

I told him I stabbed him.

He asked me why, and I said because they shot holes in the side of my van.

And I told him prior to that they stole $20 off me at the 404 club.

Remember giving that testimony?

Yes, sir.

And do you remember clearly everything that happened on this night?

Clearly not everything.

After the time that I seen Colt & when John came at me from then on it moved too fast and just it just went too fast.

I cant recall.

The next thing I know, I was holding the knife.

Thats all.

I dropped it.

But you didn't go into the kitchen to get the knife?

No, sir.

You don't have any idea how it got in your hands?

I must have picked it up.

You told me to wear that, you didn't remember how you stabbed him.

Isn't that right?

Yes, sir.

And didn't you tell officer Gassman that night that you went in, got a knife and stab him?

No, I never made that statement.

You didn't tell him that either?

No, sir.

That's about how Mr.

McClain and Mr.

Hudgins describe it, isn't it?

That you went and got a knife and stabbed him.

And that was about all there was to it.

Yes, sir.

That's the way they do Is it true thats what Officer Gassman testified that you told him that night that you went in, got a knife and stabbed Mr.

Botello and nothing more.

Yes, sir.

That's what he said.

Earlier on direct exanimation you testified that you walked up to the front bumper.

I think you said of your van.

You heard a plunk plunk plunk and then you heard three bangs.

That correct?

Yes, sir.

Would you agree whoever was shooting had they wanted to shoot you they could have done so?

Objection, argumentative.

Sustained.

But you went ahead inside the house didnt you?

Yes, sir.

You werent afraid theyd shoot you were you?

I don't know, sir.

You testified that you went right up and held the muzzle of the gun.

Something like that.

Right to your face?

Yes, sir.

Would you do that if you were afraid hed pull the trigger?

I doubt it, I don't know.

I don't know.

It depends on the circumstances.

I guess.

Did you could tell Mr.

McClain on the porch or as you went in you went inside that first time that you were going to blow them all away?

No, sir.

You were pretty angry?

Yes,I was After that first hassle with Hudgins you went ahead and went to the 404 club didn't you?

Yes.

Because he gripped about me not bringing any food You couldve given him the $20 & left if you were worried I guess I could have but have you ever argued with a drunk If you are dealing with an argumentative drunk, wouldn't you agree its simpler to just give him the $20?

If hes hassling you about money and leave and not go off to the bar to continue working with him?

Probably.

That's what you did isn't it?

Taking into consideration everything that happened.. Mr.

Sandoval, Let him answer the question!

Ill overrule the objection.

But please, Mr.

Sandoval you may continue to answer.

I figured the best way to handle it was to have a drink with him.

So, you had this confrontation when you come back the 1st time and find bullet holes in the van and go inside, and then you leave, right?

Yes, sir.

And you drive home.

Right?

Yes, sir.

Did you examine the radiator and see what was wrong with it?

I put water in the radiator sure, and you could see the water pouring out the bottom.

So even though water is coming out of it, you got back in it and decided to drive back down to 36th E 4th I had to.

I had commitments the next day.

Did you think you're going to get that radiator fixed at midnight on Thanksgiving?

Oh, what I was trying to do was make it plain that they had to reimburse me.

When you had the argument in the 404 club, you told us what they said to you.

You said that all you said back was calling them sons of guns or something like that, in fact, you used a little more explicit language didnt you Mr.

Sandoval?

Yes, sir.

What did you call them?

Probably sons of bitches, no good bastards I have a toungue too.

When I get mad.

Yes, Sir.

In many ways, Mr.

Sandoval, you can get angry.

Just like they can get angry is that true?

Yes, sir.

You can curse just like they can is that true?

Yes, sir.

You were angry when you left the bar Yes, sir.

You were even angrier when you found the bullet holes When the shots rang out Yes, Sir Angrier still when you went inside and they told you they weren't going to do anything about it & wouldn't admit doing it either Just said Id talk to them the next day, Sir.

And you and you angrier Yet when you went home and found your radiator didnt work Yes, sir.

So angry that you decided you were going to go back and settle it right then and there?

Isn't that right?

Make sure, make it a point that they understood that my radiator was full of holes.

Yes, Sir.

Now, when you went back the second time and went inside, you didn't see the rifle,did you second time, No, Sir.

And at any point during your presence in there the second time nobody pointed that rifle at you or threatened you with the rifle, did they?

The second time?

No, sir.

You told Mr.

Eisner you werent in your right mind when you went back the second time.

I was the second time I was confused, sir.

Those were your words on direct examination I wasn't in my right mind?.

I don't recall, Sir.. You were so angry about it that you werent in your right mind.

I can't recall.

Objection.

Thats confusing Either he said it earlier.

Or he wasnt in his tight mind.

Im not sure.

Or he wasnt in his tight mind.

Im not sure.

Mr.

Sandoval understood the question.

If he doesn't understand my questions all he has to do is tell me and Ill rephrase Objection overuled.

At any point in time, were you scared that night of Hudgins or in that day.

Yes, I was.

When was that?

I just basically I was scared at the bar.

I guess a second time when I saw the weapon Most of all the 3rd time when I seen them coming at me.

You weren't scared enough of Mr.

Hudgins not to enter the house when you came back and found holes in your van were you?

At the time, I didn't know he had the weapon in his hands I walked in on the weapon, I was scared.

When I seen that.

Isnt it your testimony that shots were fired in near proximity to you right before you went into that house.

Yes, sir.. So you knew somebody in there had a gun.

Yes, sir.

You knew you it was working?

Yes, sir.

But I didn't know what situation I was walking into.

You weren't scared enough to call the police during all this were you?

And I guess I wasn't, sir.

You weren't scared enough that you decided not to go back there at the end of the day.

Sir, all I know is that I was inoperable it messed up my van.

all I wanted was rembursement to get me back on the road.

And go to work, Sir.

Youre telling this Jury Mr.

Sandoval, after fights, after rifle shots in your van, after fights between third parties, after shots being near proximity after you get a chainsaw that all you're interested in is getting your car going so you can go to work the next day?

Yes, sir.

That's what I'm telling you.

Buy you don't have any idea why you stabbed Arnold Botello?

I wanted to get out there to second time Sir.

I don't remembe stabbing him.

He was in the doorway.

I don't recall picking up a knife.

It just happened.

Next thing the knife was in my hand.

No further questions.

Mr.

Sandoval Mr.

Shockley asked you if you told officers everything you told this jury, Mr.

Sandoval, youve been on the witness stand Now, about what an hour and a half?.

I don't know, Sir.

How long did you talk to officer gassman?

I'd say I estimate maybe about 3 to 5 minutes.

Mr.

Shockley, read some of the parts of your testimony from that hearing a couple of weeks ago.

Do you remember me asking this question?

Are you giving this answer?

The question, what was that conversation about?

Answer.

I told him I had stabbed him and he asked me why.

I told him that I was cornered in there.

they shot at me prior There was an altercation at the 404 club.

theyd stolen 20 dollars off me.

Do you remember me Asking that question and you're giving that answer?

Now I do, Sir yes.

I have no further questions.

Okay.

Thank you, you may step down.

Ladies and gentlemen, at this point, the evidence has been completed.

Again, I would ask that you not try to start picking the evidence together until you actually hear what the instructions are that are going to guide you into liberation so that you know what the law with that, youre excused now until 10:00 tomorrow morning.

It's your job next.

We're just about done with ours.

Next.

The verdict.

You can't excuse and you can't condone the actions of the people in 36th E 4th ave that day.

But they do not justify murder.

Don't settle property damage to a vehicle and don't settle obnoxious comments with chainsaws and knives and killing people..... Mr.

Shockley makes it sound like I guess if it's self-defense and after he stabbed Arnold he should have gone around and stabbed everybody else.

But isn't it also logical that given the circumstances, everybody being mad at everybody else, everything out of control, that when you realize what's happened and you see somebody stabbed, it's my God, has it come to this?