- [Announcer] This program was funded by the following.

Joni and Joe Latimer, Lynda Johnson Robb and family, BP America, and also by.. And by... A complete list of funders is available at APTonline.org and LiveFromLBJ.org.

(uplifting music) - The greatest national security threat we have right now is how poorly we are educating our kids in pre-K through 12.

- We are reinforcing democracy.

We are the ones who get to choose our future.

- Democracy is a fragile thing.

It has to be defended and it always has to be defended.

(dramatic music continues) (gentle music) - Welcome to the LBJ Presidential Library in Austin, Texas.

I'm Mark Updegrove.

As an author, journalist, television commentator, and CEO of the LBJ Foundation, I've had the privilege of talking to some of the biggest names and best minds of our day about our nation's rich history and the pressing issues of our times.

Now, we bring those conversations straight to you.

In this series, we'll explore America in all its complexity, what our extraordinary but often tempestuous history says about who we are as a people, and the formidable challenges we face today.

Our guest tonight is Melody Barnes, the executive director of the Karsh Institute for Democracy at the University of Virginia.

As director of the White House Domestic Policy Council for Barack Obama, and prior to that, chief counsel for the late senator Ted Kennedy, she has had a ringside seat to history in the making, and characterizes the current challenges to our democracy as wrestling with the friction between our aspirations and the reality of American life.

Melody Barnes, welcome.

- It's a pleasure to be here.

- Well, you are the head of the Karsh Institute for Law and Democracy at a very fortuitous time, at a time when we are seeing faith in our democracy ebb.

Almost half of Americans don't believe that democracy is working, and about 16% of Americans have faith in their government, an all-time low.

How do you explain this crisis of democracy?

- And why did I choose to do this job?

- Yeah, why did you do it?

Right, exactly.

Well, one, I think that the crisis of democracy in the United States sits inside a larger global trend, and we're seeing the same kind of antagonism, concern, disbelief in democracy globally, and we can look around the world and see an appetite for more authoritarian voices, and the United States reflects that.

Although, you know, every place is every place, so it has its own story, and I think the elements of the global trend that we're also seeing here are, there's a level of deep, deep insecurity for a lot of different reasons.

I mean, certainly, people are feeling economic insecurity, and I know people often talk about that with the 2016 election, and I think that's true, and this yawning, widening gap in terms of income inequality, the sense of my mother or my father could raise their family, you know, with a high school education or a two-year certification.

Why can't I?

And my children's lives may not be better than mine.

Why is that?

And, you know, that goes on and on.

So I think that is true, but that isn't the whole story, because we also see people who are very economically secure, in fact, quite well off, who also feel like the sand is shifting under their feet in ways that they aren't comfortable with, and I think crisscrossing all of that are shifts in demography.

- Hmm.

- And the make-up of the country, and that's often reflected in that line that we hear.

"I don't recognize my country."

Something that I was used to, a place where I felt comfortable, I felt like was home, is no longer home, and I think there are other people still for whom it never felt like home.

They never had a sense of security.

They never had a sense of being of this place, of truly being seen as a citizen or feeling like a citizen.

So I think that is, all of those elements are underway, and then you add to that social media, and I don't just, there are definite goods that come with social media and being a part of this digital technological age, but we also know that misinformation, disinformation moves six times faster than facts are moving, and what we are learning about each other, the ways that we engage with each other, the ways that we get information, that we share information, tapping so quickly that we're able to both stay in our own silos, listen to our own facts, and in many instances, refuse to engage with people not like us, and when we do it in a basis that's not something that's not based on fact and in the most uncivil ways, and so I think a lot of those are many of the factors that are contributing to a democracy that is in deep, deep trouble.

You know, I also think, I work on a university campus, and I work at the University of Virginia, founded on this idea that education and higher education is necessary for democracy.

You need an educated citizenry, and there is, as we have seen among the American public, less comfort with, a disbelief that higher education is good or necessary.

- Hmm.

- And that goes along with a suspension of belief and faith in other institutions as well.

So that confluence of issues is having a significant impact on our ability to execute on the essence of democracy, which is self-governance.

- As you do your research, Melody, do most Americans understand basic democratic principles?

- Well, one of the things that we have seen, and I work in coalition with a number of organizations and individuals, and over and over and over again, we run into the deep concern with a lack of civic education and understanding how government works, understanding how our institutions work, and the fact that that basis of information just isn't there, and that starts K-12 and moves into higher education and beyond, and some of the really critical work that we've been doing in partnership with others is focusing on civic education.

We have an intense focus on how do we make it more accessible and equitable at the two-year and four-year level in higher education, but also looking for ways to connect that to K-12 education, and there is a movement afoot, and we're seeing more and more states start to adopt the principle that we've got to build this into K-12 along with media literacy.

- Right.

Right.

- And we are looking for ways to engage on higher education, because, you know, every institution is its own kingdom, but working with accreditors, looking at best practices in states and state systems, private and public universities and colleges, and two and four-year around the country, so that we can share those best practices and look for ways to put that into the bloodstream.

So, all of that to say, we're doing that work because there's a deep concern that people don't have that fundamental knowledge about how our system works, what democracy is, what other forms of government are.

So, you know, we can have the debates.

We can engage in conversation about that, but also so that we can participate in ways that are fulsome.

- As you look at this challenge of preserving our democracy and do the research that you have conducted, are there things that make you hopeful that we can turn the corner?

- One, because more and more people are talking about this.

- [Mark] Hmm.

- One of my big concerns has been the sense that democracy in the United States is inevitable, and it's like the air that we breathe.

It's just there and it's just going to be there, when, in fact, we know that democracy requires our hard work, that democracy is a, you know, this is a verb, and it requires our energy, our attention, education, and participation.

That's foundational to self-governance, and the fact that people are focused on this, that there's a growing and deepening concern about what people are witnessing and that people are acting on this, that is hopeful to me, and while, you know, we have, and we witness the debates that take place, particularly in Washington, and I think a lot of people avert their eyes from that because it seems dysfunctional.

It's calcified.

It's not getting us anywhere.

It has nothing to do with me and it's not changing my life.

I think a lot of people believe that.

- Yeah.

- And, you know, some of that is true, but having worked in Washington, I can make the case for something different too, but I think people are turning toward their communities and looking for ways to be more actively engaged to make a difference, whether it's on, you know, city councils or their school boards in some way to participate, and understand that this isn't just an election day matter.

Elections are necessary, but they're not sufficient, and it's all the days that take place in between election days that call for participation, and, you know, we hear the stories of and witness the ways that people are becoming more actively involved.

- What do you tell people who wanna make a difference, but don't think that they necessarily have the platform and the power to do so?

- Well, I think, first of all, that making a difference and participating in democracy, yes, I mean, we look at our elected officials and we see people who are deemed to be powerful, but, one, because of our form of government, every individual has the opportunity to make a difference, which is something that I often tell young people.

I mean, the beauty of this is that we have power in our own hands to transform and to engage, and I know people will talk about money and politics, and that is a deep and concerning problem.

I have seen it up close and personal.

- Hmm.

- But people can and have and do come together to transform their communities, and I would point people to different examples of the way that people have, you know, not only marched and protested, but their engagement with their elected officials to transform.

I could tell them about, you know, the young woman who sat beside a legislator in the state of Maine, and they started talking about what happens to young people as they age out of foster care, and that led to legislation being passed in the state of Maine to improve the lot for young people who are aging out of foster care.

You know, there are more and more stories about that.

I could tell them about young adults that I've worked with, you know, 18, 19, 22, 23, 24 years old, who may have been involved in the juvenile justice system or foster care or have been homeless, who have said, "You know what?

I've got a stake in this, and for myself and for my family, I can participate and I can make a difference."

And you can see the different ways that they have transformed their communities and transformed their own lives.

So it is not only possible, but this isn't some pipe dream.

It is actually happening in cities and towns and tribal communities all over the country.

- Hmm.

You have worked with three democratic icons, Ted Kennedy, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden.

I wanna talk about each of them, starting with Ted Kennedy, who was a fixture in Washington for almost 50 years.

What did you learn from Ted Kennedy?

- I learned so many things.

One of them was optimism.

I remember, and to our very topic, I had been staffing him at an event and it was pouring rain, and he said, "Oh, you know, you're not gonna be able to get a cab home.

Vicki is having a meeting in the dining room.

Why don't you come to the house and you and I can sit in the kitchen and talk and then you can get a cab?"

And we were sitting there, having dinner, and I looked at him and thinking about, you know, what I thought was a challenging Washington at that time.

Little did I know, but someone who was working through that, someone who had lost family members to gun violence as they were actively involved in political life in this country, and I said to him, "You know, how do you keep doing this?"

And he looked at me and he said, "When it works, it is amazing."

- Hmm.

- And that's a belief that he carried throughout his political life, and so that's one of the things that I saw.

I also saw him actively working across the aisle and doing that extremely successfully, and people, you know, could see him, you know, banging on the podium and yelling, and, you know, fighting for the things that he deeply believed in.

That was no act.

- You worked for Barack Obama in his first term in the White House, and one of the most indelible moments of the Obama presidency was in 2015 when he went to South Carolina after the tragic shootings at the Black church and sang "Amazing Grace."

♪ Amazing grace (audience cheers) ♪ How sweet the sound - He carried the burden of the presidency with what seemed to be amazing grace.

As the first Black president, that must have been particularly difficult.

Melody, did you see the strain on Barack Obama when you were working with him?

- I remember, early in the presidency, and the economic crisis was, we may have still been in the transition or just out of the transition right after the inauguration, and realizing just how significant this was.

There was that, you know, H1N1.

You know, now that we've dealt with COVID, but H1N1.

You know, there was one thing after another, and he looked at us and he said, "Bring me the hard problems and we're going to figure this out."

He welcomed that.

He saw that as his job.

You know, was it difficult?

Was it demanding?

Was it stressful?

Yes, but that is why he wanted the job.

- Hmm.

- His belief in democracy, his belief in our system, and his belief that, collectively, we could work together to get something done.

- Hmm.

- You know, I remember the night that the Affordable Care Act finally passed Congress, and it was March and it was unusually warm, and, you know, after everybody came back from the hill and we were at the White House, we went to the Truman Balcony off the residence, a big group of us, and we were standing there that night, and, you know, it was a beautiful night.

You could see the Washington Monument, but he looked at us and he said, "You know, this is better than election night, because this is why we came here."

And so, yes, it was challenging.

It was hard, but the idea that we were there to get something done, the essence, I think, of public service is what animated him, and I think that is part of what carried him.

- How do you think history will reflect on the Obama presidency?

- I think, I mean, I'm probably not surprising to anyone watching.

I think history will look kindly on that administration.

One, we were able to get a lot done, and get a lot done, and much of it on a bipartisan basis, very early in the administration.

The amount of legislation passed and the amount of legislation passed that, you know, got support from both sides of the aisle, and without huge majorities.

You know, smaller majorities than Johnson had when he did what he did, which was so incredible, and we touched lots of different areas of American life and did it in a moment of crisis for the country.

I mean, I still remember having to go back over and over, and think, "We are losing how many hundreds of thousands of jobs a month?"

And it was incredible, but, you know, you put your head down and you get the work done, and to your question, the way that he and Mrs. Obama carried themselves, which I think the world saw as a shining example of grace and intelligence and humility.

- You worked with Vice President Joe Biden, who, of course, since has become president.

Has anything about the Biden presidency surprised you, given what you knew of Joe Biden as vice president?

- Well, first of all, I knew President Biden before he was Vice President Biden, because he was chair or ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and I was Senator Kennedy's chief counsel in the Judiciary Committee.

So I had gotten to know him in the Senate, and thinking about that arc of time, no, I'm not surprised.

Again, he understood the institution in which he worked as a senator.

He had years of experience working with presidents and vice presidents and being a vice president, so he understood that institution and how those two institutions could work together effectively, and also working across Democratic-Republican lines to get things done, deep long-standing relationships, and, you know, people can say what they want, but relationships are, you know, the mother's milk of getting a lot of things done in Washington.

- True.

- So he had all of that, and what you see is what you get in terms of, you know, Joe Biden from Scranton.

You know, a deep sense of empathy and understanding of what it means to be a working class person in the United States.

Those were the issues he cared deeply about, and, you know, the president told him to take and to move forward when he was vice president.

It's reflected in the work that he often did as a senator.

So, seeing that play out today and the scrappiness and the belief that there is a way to negotiate, to work with people if they are open, and if they are willing to get something done.

- What drives Joe Biden?

- I think it is the way he grew up.

I think it is understanding what tough times look like and what it means to care for your family and worry if you are able to provide, to give them more opportunity than you had.

You know, I think those things drive him.

I know him to be a really empathetic, a really empathetic person, with also, you know, a great sense of humor and hardworking, but, you know, I can think of times when, you know, things had happened that were painful on a personal level.

I remember when Senator Kennedy died, and his level of empathy and sympathy and kindness, and I've seen that reflected in lots of different ways.

- Joe Biden has made the central issue of his presidency the preservation of democracy, but he's doing so in a very partisan, very divided environment.

Is his message breaking through?

- I think that is such a great question.

Part of my answer is I hope so, but I think part of the challenge is embedded in your question and speaks to the dire nature of the problem, that democracy is now seen as a partisan issue as opposed to, for us, an American issue, and I think more and more people are listening and hearing it and engaged in the conversation, which hopefully will help us move forward, but I think that part of the problem is that people now see this as, you know, if you're for democracy as articulated by President Biden, that must mean a set of democratic, meaning political, views and policies.

- Hmm.

- When, in fact, the essence of the issue really has nothing to do with a partisan or political battle.

The essence of the question is whether or not we will support basic democratic principles and tenets that allow us to have the playing field for self-governance.

Are we focused on the rule of law?

Will we, in fact, have fealty to the Constitution and the ideas of tolerance and pluralism that we have set out as aspirational American democratic ideals?

And that's why I think we are seeing more people crisscrossing the partisan line.

You know, you hear people like, you know, former circuit court judge Michael Luttig, you know, a very, very prominent, deeply conservative jurist who is saying the kinds of things that he's been saying, and working with someone like Larry Tribe at Harvard University, who is known as being a very progressive, very prominent constitutional law scholar, and you see those kinds of conversations and pairings taking place for the protection of that playing field, and I'm hoping that that will help break through and support what the president is doing by putting this issue front and center for all of us.

- Melody Barnes, thank you for being with us.

- Great.

Thank you.

(uplifting music) (uplifting music continues) - [Announcer] This program was funded by the following.

Joni and Joe Latimer, Lynda Johnson Robb and family, BP America, and also by... And by... A complete list of funders is available at APTonline.org and LiveFromLBJ.org.

(upbeat flute jingle plays) (bright music)