>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> THAT'S REAL STARVATION STUFF.

I SEE IT.

YOU CAN'T FAKE THAT.

>> CHILDREN STARVE, IN GAZA, AS THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS WORSENS BY THE MINUTE, AND OUTRAGE AROUND THE WORLD GROWS.

I WILL SPEAK TO HUMANITARIAN JOHN EGELAND, SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL.

>>> I THINK THIS DEAL WILL BRING US CLOSER TOGETHER.

>> A TRADE DEAL FOR THE U.S. AND EU.

BUT, IS IT ACTUALLY A GOOD DEAL FOR EUROPE?

I WILL ASK JOURNALIST, STEVEN ERLANGER, WHO COVERS THE CONTINENT FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

PLUS, >> Translator: WE ANALYZE ALL ASPECTS OF WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.

>> AFTER PROTESTERS MAKE THEIR VOICES HEARD IN UKRAINE, A U- TURN FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

I WILL DISCUSS WHAT THE UNREST WITH DARIA, WHO HAS BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT OF COMBATING CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE.

>>> SUDDENLY, YOU HAVE REMOVED THE REPUBLICAN ADVANTAGE FROM THREE STREETS SEATS TO CLOSER TO SIX OR SEVEN.

>> ANTIDEMOCRATIC FOR HOW REDISTRICTING IN TEXAS COULD CHANGE AMERICA'S POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING LEAR, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAILA AND MAGGIE STRAUSS.

MARK J BLUSHING OR.

SETON G MELVIN.

THE PEDEN G PETERSON AND JOE DANCE CONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

TO AND PATRICIA, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BREANNA, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE ALLMAN POOR.

CHILDREN STARVING TO DEATH WITH IMAGES BEAMED AROUND THE WORLD.

THE CRISIS IN GAZA IS BEING SEEN BY ISRAEL'S ALLIES AS INCREASINGLY INTOLERABLE.

WHILE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TRIES TO CLAIM THERE IS NO STARVATION IN GAZA, HERE IS PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAKING TO A REPORTER EARLIER.

>> PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU GAZA.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

BASED ON TELEVISION I WOULD SAY, NOT PARTICULARLY.

THOSE CHILDREN WAS VERY HUNGRY.

>> HERE IS WHAT BRITISH PRIME MINISTER KIER STARMER HAD TO SAY.

>> CERTAINLY, SPEAKING FOR THE BRITISH PUBLIC AND MYSELF, SEEING THOSE IMAGES OF STARVING CHILDREN, IN PARTICULAR, ARE REVOLTING.

THERE IS A SENSE OF REVULSION IN THE BRITISH PUBLIC ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE SEEING.

THEY KNOW, AND WE KNOW, THAT MONETARY AID NEEDS TO GET IN AT SPEED AND VOLUME.

>> ISRAEL IS POSITING MILITARY ACTIVITY AT SPECIFIC TIMES AND PARTS OF GAZA TO ALLOW AID DELIVERIES INTO THE ENCLAVE.

THE U.N. HAS WELCOMED THE DEVELOPMENT, THE CAUTIONS THE HUMAN COMMUNITARIAN SITUATION REMAINS DIRE.

SOME AID IS BEING AIRDROPPED, BUT IT IS ALSO DANGEROUS AND AN EFFICIENT.

JUST LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE IN GAZA.

>> Translator: I DIDN'T GET ANYTHING.

I WAS CRUSHED IN THE CROWD.

>> Translator: THIS AID IS DISGRACEFUL.

WE ARE NOT DOGS TO BE MADE TO RUN AFTER AID.

PEOPLE FOUGHT OVER IT.

>> MY FIRST GUEST THE PAUSES AS BETTER THAN NOTHING, BUT CAUTIONS THE COMPLETED SYSTEMS OF PAUSES, CORRIDORS AND AIR DROPS IS NOT GOING TO AVERT FAMINE AND MASS DEATH.

SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE NORWEGIAN AID COUNSEL AND HE IS JOINING ME FROM OSLO.

JAN, FIRST, YOUR REACTION TO PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN ASKED IF THERE IS A FAMINE IN GAZA, IF THE PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING ENOUGH FOOD, THE FACT THAT HE SAID THAT STARVATION IS REAL, YOU CANNOT FAKE THE IMAGES THAT HE IS SEEING, FOLLOWED BY THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER CALLING IT REVOLTING, YOUR REACTION TO THOSE COMMENTS FROM TWO OF ISRAEL'S CLOSEST ALLIES?

>> I AM GLAD, THAT AT LONG LAST PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRIME MINISTER STARMER, MERTZ, IN GERMANY, EVERYBODY AGREES WITH US WHO HAVE BEEN SAYING NOW FOR MANY MONTHS, FROM STARVATION, THEY ARE DYING FROM PREVENTABLE DISEASE, BECAUSE THERE IS NO MEDICINE, BECAUSE THE HOSPITALS HAVE BEEN BOMBED.

THEY ARE DYING BECAUSE THERE IS NO WATER AND SANITATION.

MY ORGANIZATION IS AMONG THOSE TRYING TO PROVIDE WATER AND SANITATION.

WE HAVE NO FUEL ANYMORE TO DO THAT.

CANNOT PROVIDE EVEN THE BASIC AID, UP UNTIL THIS POINT.

SO, THIS HAS BEEN DELIVER IT DELIBERATE STARVATION, AND THEY KNOW SO, BECAUSE WE HAVE TOLD THEM FOR MANY MONTHS.

I AM GLAD THERE IS A WAKE-UP CALL, NOW.

IT IS VERY LATE.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP WENT ON TO SAY THAT THE U.S. HAS SENT $60 MILLION IN AID FOR THE GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION.

INTERESTINGLY, HE DIDN'T CRITICIZE THE FOUNDATION ITSELF, THOUGH HE DID SAY MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE, BY SETTING UP SO-CALLED FOOD CENTERS.

HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THAT?

HOW WOULD A FOOD CENTER THEIR WORK?

>> I THINK WHAT THEY REFER TO IS THAT THE GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION, WHICH THERE IS NOTHING HUMANITARIAN ABOUT, IT IS A MILITARY SETUP BY THE ISRAELI ARMY, IT IS NOT WORKING.

WHAT WE HAD BEFORE THE BREAKDOWN OF THE CEASE-FIRE IN MARCH, AND THEN ISRAEL BROKE OFF THAT CEASE-FIRE, WE HAD UP TO 400 THIS TRADITION POINTS.

THERE ARE 2 MILLION PEOPLE THERE.

HOW MANY SHOPS WITH HER BEFORE A POPULATION OF 2 MILLION, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD?

MANY HUNDREDS.

OF COURSE, YOU CANNOT HAVE TWO CENTERS HERE AND TWO DISTILLATION POINTS THERE.

IT HAS TO BE MASSIVE.

THE ONLY WAY TO AVERT A BIBLICAL FAMINE ON THE WATCH THAT ISRAEL AND ITS WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR, IS A MASSIVE OPENING FOR BORDER CROSSINGS FOR AID ORGANIZATIONS, INCLUDING MY OWN, HAVE BEEN IN GAZA FOR A GENERATION, SINCE LONG BEFORE HAMAS, BUT WE ARE STILL DENIED ACCESS FOR OUR WATER AND SANITATION AND HYGIENE ITEMS, FOOD AND TENTS.

>> THAT IS ISRAEL DENYING ACCESS.

DO YOU THINK EGYPT, WHICH ALSO SHARES A BORDER WITH GAZA WOULD BE OPEN, OR COULD BE PERSUADED OR PRESSURED TO DO THE SAME THING?

>> AMONG THOSE WHO WANTED TO GIVE MUCH MORE AND WHO I BELIEVE HAVE CROSSED WITH SOME CONSIGNMENTS, BUT OF COURSE, THE ISRAELI ARMY IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER CROSSING.

IT IS AN OCCUPATION FORCE, THAT IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST MILITARIES IN THE WORLD.

THEY CONTROL GAZA.

WESTERN POWERS THAT PROVIDE THE ARMS TO ALL OF THIS, THAT HAS TO CHANGE THIS.

THEY HAVE THE FINGERPRINT ALL OVER THIS CATASTROPHE, REALLY.

WE CAN CHANGE IT, IT IS STILL POSSIBLE, BUT NOT WITH A SYSTEM OF TEN-HOUR PAUSES AND IF YOU CORRIDORS, AIR DROPS LOOK GOOD ON TELEVISION BUT DOES NOT REALLY GIVE ANYTHING TO THE POPULATION.

IT HAS TO BE A MASSIVE RAMP-UP, AND TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

>> TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT FROM THE IMAGES, WE ARE HEARING IT FROM DOCTORS ON THE GROUND, AID ORGANIZATIONS, AND YOU'RE HEARING IT FROM ISRAELIS.

FOR THE FIRST TIME, THIS IS REALLY PENETRATING THE ISRAELI MEDIA AS WELL.

HOW TO BEST GO ABOUT DOING THAT, AS EFFECTIVELY AND EFFICIENTLY AS RAPIDLY AS NEED BE NEEDED AID.

IS THERE ANY ALTERNATIVE IN YOUR VIEW OTHER THAN GOING BACK TO THE STATUS QUO PRIOR TO MARCH THE WHEN ISRAEL PUT THE BLOCKADE IN, AND THEN PUT IN THE GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION INSTEAD?

>> NO, WE HAD A FUNCTIONING CEASE-FIRE.

THERE WAS ENOUGH FOOD AND OTHER SUPPLIES COMING IN EVERY SINGLE DAY, BY TRUSTED INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS FROM EUROPE, FROM THE UNITED STATES, AND ELSEWHERE.

IT FUNCTIONED, AT THE TIME.

ISRAEL BROKE THIS.

THEY SEALED THE BORDER, AND STARVATION, WHICH IS SIMILAR TO UNDER THE ASSAD REGIME IN SYRIA, BUT WITH NO SANCTIONS, TO PUNISH THOSE, THAT IS STRANGULATION OF A POPULATION.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE?

A CEASE-FIRE IS NUMBER ONE.

TODAY, THERE WAS A LOT OF AIR RAIDS, AND THEY KILLED A MOTHER WITH A NEWBORN BABY, AMONG MANY CIVILIANS.

PEOPLE ARE SHOT, EVERY SINGLE DAY, AS THEY RUSH, HUNGRY AS THEY ARE, FOR FOOD.

IF I WAS A 17-YEAR-OLD BOY IN GAZA, I WOULD RUSH TO GET SOME FOOD FOR MY STARVING LITTLE SISTER.

THEN, ALL OF THE AID ORGANIZATIONS HAVE TO BE ALLOWED IN, NOT JUST A FEW U.N.

AGENCIES AND A COUPLE OF NGOS.

WE ARE 100 ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE A TRACK RECORD OF EFFECTIVE DELIVERY AND INDEPENDENT DELIVERY IN GAZA, AND THEN WE HAVE TO HAVE ALL OF THE BORDER CROSSINGS OPEN, SO THAT WE CAN FLOOD IT, AS HE SAID THE AIDE, SO THAT IT IS NOT THE GANGS THAT CAN LOOT WHATEVER COMES IN, IN DESPERATION.

WE CAN HAVE ORDERLY DISTRIBUTIONS, AND WE NEED HUNDREDS OF DISTRIBUTION POINTS.

THERE ARE, AFTER ALL, 2 MILLION CIVILIANS, AND NIGHTLY NEARLY ALL OF THEM ARE INNOCENT OF THE ATROCITIES OF THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER.

>> GAZA EFFECTIVELY FUNCTIONING AS A FAILED STATE AT THIS POINT.

YOU HAVE ABOUT 64 PEOPLE ON THE GROUND WORKING IN GAZA.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM THEM?

ACCOUNTS THEY ARE REPORTING BACK TO YOU?

>> THERE IS A NEW TONE.

THESE ARE THE TRUE HEROES.

IF THERE IS ANYONE I WOULD GIVE THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, TOO, I WOULD GIVE IT TO MY COLLEAGUES ON THE GROUND.

PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, SINGLE MOTHERS WHO ARE ALSO AID WORKERS, MANY OF THEM.

BUT THEY HAVE BROKEN NOW AFTER THESE MONTHS OF STARVATION, THESE MONTHS OF HAVING THEIR HOMES DESTROYED, THE STORIES THEY TELL OF BEING IN THEIR EIGHTH HOME, AND THEN HEARING A DRONE WITH AN ISRAELI MILITARY LOUDSPEAKER IN THE MORNING SAYING, YOU HAVE TWO HOURS TO LEAVE, TAKE WHATEVER YOU CAN CARRY AND LEAVE, BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO DESTROY THIS CIVILIAN NONE OF US WOULD BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN SUCH INHUMANITY FOR SUCH A LONG TIME.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN AN EXPERT IN THIS REGION, HAVING A FRONT ROW SEAT TO NORMAL NUMEROUS CONFLICTS AND WARS.

YOU TOOK PART IN THE OSLO TALKS, AS WELL.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT THE BEST WAY TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE ADEQUATE FOOD AND HUMANITARIAN AID IS BROUGHT IN AS A CEASE-FIRE.

AS YOU KNOW, NOT ONLY ISRAEL, BUT THE UNITED STATES PLACED THE LANE THIS TIME AROUND NEGOTIATIONS ON HAMAS, SAYING THEY WOULD NOT BUDGE.

YOUR REACTION TO THAT, AND WHAT COULD IT TAKE TO GET TO THAT CEASE-FIRE?

>> I AM NOT PRIVY TO NEGOTIATIONS.

WHAT I SEE, AS A MILITARY CONFLICT, IT WAS ALL OVER A LONG TIME AGO.

THERE WERE AS MANY ISRAELI MILITARIES HAVE SAID, NO MORE THIS IS NOT TARGETED ANTITERRORIST WARFARE, IT IS THE DESTRUCTION OF A CIVILIAN POPULATION.

HAMAS HAS 1 MILLION SINS ON THEIR CONSCIOUS, AND WORST OF ALL, THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER MASSACRES..ORGANIZATION CLOSE DOWN MY ORGANIZATION WHEN THEY TRIED, WHEN WE WERE NOT WILLING TO BUDGE, WHEN THEY ASKED US TO GIVE AID TO CERTAIN GROUPS ONLY.

THEY YIELDED, WE CONTINUE TO BE INDEPENDENT, HAVE 1 MILLION SINS ON THEIR CONSCIENCE, HAMAS, BUT THOSE DYING AND BLEEDING HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HAMAS.

THESE ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN, THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, AND THAT IS WHY A CEASE-FIRE HAS TO BE DECLARED IMMEDIATELY.

WHATEVER IS SAID BY MEN IN.

>> YEAH.

YOU TALK ABOUT ISRAELI MILITARY OFFICIALS, FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER SAYING THAT THEY ACHIEVED ALL THEIR MILITARY GOALS LAST SUMMER, WHEN A DEAL WAS CLOSE, AND SADLY NOT REACHED AT THAT POINT.

CAN I GET YOU TO RESPOND TO WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP ALSO SAID, THAT HE WAS WORKING WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ON VARIOUS PLANS, SORT OF A PLAN B, NOW, TO FREE HOSTAGES STILL BEING HELD BY HAMAS.

THE ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS, I SPOKE WITH A HOSTAGE FAMILY SAYS THIS WORRIES THEM, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT IT ENDANGERS THE LIVES OF HOSTAGES, IF THIS IS, IN FACT, A RESCUER MILITARY OPERATION.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS?

WHAT OTHER ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS DO YOU THINK THERE COULD BE, OTHER THAN A CEASE- FIRE, AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, IT IS HARD TO SEE THE HOSTAGES CAN BE RELEASED WITHOUT SOME NEGOTIATIONS.

THE MAJORITY OF THE HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN RELEASED AS A PART OF NEGOTIATIONS.

IT DID WORK.

OF COURSE, THE HOSTAGETAKING IS ABHORRENT.

I HAVE SEEN THAT IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, IT DESTROYS FAMILIES, AND THESE ARE COMPLETELY INNOCENT PEOPLE THAT WERE JUST KIDNAPPED AND BROUGHT INTO TUNNELS.

THE SUFFERING IS UNIMAGINABLE FOR THEM.

BUT, IT HAS BEEN NEGOTIATIONS THAT HAVE GOTTEN THEM OUT.

AND ALSO, BY THE WAY, THE MANY HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIANS, CIVILIANS WHO HAVE BEEN SITTING WITHOUT ANY TRIAL FOR A VERY LONG TIME, AND MANY OF THEM MALTREATED.

IT IS UNDENIABLE.

SO, THE NEGOTIATIONS HAVE TO BE PUSHED MUCH HARDER BY THE UNITED STATES, AND BY EUROPE AND GULF COUNTRIES ON BOTH SIDES.

THAT IS THE ONLY HOPE, REALLY.

THE ONLY WAY ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS CAN LIVE TOGETHER.

I HAVE SEEN THAT, MYSELF, SINCE WE FACILITATED THE OSLO AGREEMENT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PLO.

THE PLO BEING A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION IN THE EYES OF ISRAEL AT THE TIME, AND IT LED TO A LOT OF GOOD ON BOTH SIDES.

DENTAL COLLAPSED, THANKS TO HAMAS'S TERROR, AND IN PART TWO NETANYAHU'S ANTI-PEACE PLATFORM.

>> IN THE DAYS TO COME, MINUS A CEASE-FIRE WHICH SO MANY PEOPLE ARE HOPING AND PRAYING FOR, WHAT WILL GIVE YOU ANY SORT OF OPTIMISM?

I KNOW THAT YOU SAID IT IS BETTER THAN NOTHING, THESE PAUSES IN THE FIGHTING, EVEN THE AIR DROPS AND AID GOING IN.

WITHOUT A CEASE-FIRE, WHAT IS IT THAT WOULD MAKE YOU AT LEAST A BIT MORE HOPEFUL THAT A COMPLETE FAILURE HAS BEEN AVERTED?

>> THE ONLY HOPE IS THAT THE PRESSURE FROM WASHINGTON, BRUSSELS, AND THE GULF CAPITALS, IS SUSTAINED.

BECOMES TOUGHER.

I THINK THESE LEADERS NOW UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR LEGACY IS --HAS A LOT OF BLACK STAINS ON IT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN A PART OF --SOMETHING THAT LED TO THE KILLING OF 18,000 PALESTINIAN CHILDREN.

18,000.

SO, I THINK THAT PRESSURE WILL JUST GROW, AND THAT IS WHY THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT FINALLY ADMITS THAT THEIR POLICY HAS NOT WORKED, AND THAT THEY MUST CHANGE.

SO, HOPEFULLY, WE WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE THE SURGE, BUT THEN WE HAVE TO SIXFOLD OR SEVENFOLD INCREASE THE AID THAT CAME IN TODAY AND YESTERDAY, WHICH WAS, AFTER ALL, MORE THAN IN PREVIOUS DAYS.

I HOPE THAT WE ARE NOW SEEING THE BEGINNING OF THE END TO THIS NIGHTMARE.

>> GETTING IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT THE MOST, SPECIFICALLY CHILDREN AND WOMEN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TRIP TO SCOTLAND ALSO YIELDED A TRADE DEAL BETWEEN THE U.S. AND EU, WHICH HE BILLED AS THE LARGEST TRADE DEAL IN HISTORY.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> I THINK IT IS GREAT THAT WE MADE A DEAL TODAY INSTEAD OF LAYING GAMES AND MAYBE NOT MAKING A DEAL AT ALL.

I WILL LET YOU SAY, BUT I THINK IT IS THE BIGGEST DEAL EVER MADE THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> IT IS A HUGE DEAL.

IT WILL BRING STABILITY, IT WILL BRING PREDICTABILITY.

THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR OUR BUSINESSES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC.

>> IT SEEMS TO BE MORE OF A FRAMEWORK FOR AN AGREEMENT BOUNTIFUL TRADE DEAL, WITH MANY DETAILS STILL UNCLEAR.

IT IS ALSO FACING PUSHBACK FROM SOME IN THE EU.

THE FRENCH PRIME MINISTER EUROPE.

LET'S GET INTO THE DETAILS, NOW, WITH STEVEN ERLANGER, CHIEF DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES" HE JOINS ME FROM BERLIN 60, IT HAS BEEN A WILD LOOK IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

AS WE NOTED, NEITHER SIDE RELEASED THE FULL TEXT OF THE AGREEMENT, THERE ARE STILL ELEMENTS THAT REMAIN UNCLEAR, BUT IT DOES APPEAR THAT A FRAMEWORK IS AT LEAST IN PLACE.

THE EXPORTS, NOW, FROM THE BLOCK WILL BE FACING A 15% TARIFF.

THERE WILL BE SOME EXCEPTIONS.

50% ON STEEL, STILL IN PLACE.

SOME ZERO TARIFF TRADE AS WELL.

THE EU HAS PLEDGED TO PURCHASE $750 BILLION WORTH OF U.S. ENERGY PRODUCTS, CONTRIBUTING TO THE U.S. ECONOMY.

IT SEEMS LIKE PERHAPS THERE IS A WINNING PARTY, IT WOULD BE THE UNITED STATES.

HOW IS THIS BEING INTERPRETED IN THE EU?

>> I THINK THERE IS A WINNING PARTY AND IT IS THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES IS JUST STRONGER.

IT HAS EXERCISED ITS POWER IN A PRETTY BRUTAL WAY.

THE EUROPEAN UNION HAS POWER, IT HAS ECONOMIC POWER, BUT IT CHOSE NOT TO USE IT, WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THERE IS A LOT OF CRITICISM INSIDE THE EU.

SOME OF THAT CRITICISM IS OBVIOUSLY ABOUT DOMESTIC POLITICS.

THAT WOULD BE TRUE IN FRANCE, CERTAINLY, BUT IN GENERAL, I THINK WHAT YOU HEAR FROM GERMANY AND ITALY AND MANY OF THE OTHERS, RELIEF THAT THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE A MASSIVE TRADE WAR.

TRUMP TENDS TO THROW OUT A GRENADE, AND THEN MAKE EVERYONE GRATEFUL THAT HE DIDN'T USE A GRENADE, BUT JUST A RIFLE.

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS HERE.

A 30% TARIFF, OR EVEN MORE.

HE SAID IT IS A 50% TARIFF, BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE BRITS GOT A 10% TARIFF.

SO, THE EU, FOR ALL OF ITS ECONOMIC WEIGHT DIDN'T DO AS WELL AS BRITAIN DID, PARTLY BECAUSE BRITAIN'S TRADE BALANCE WITH AMERICA WAS ACTUALLY IN AMERICA'S FAVOR, WHICH WAS NOT TRUE WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION.

BUT YOU KNOW, JUST TO HAVE URSULA VON DER LEYEN GO TRAIPSING THROUGH TRUMPS GOLF COURSE, WHICH HE IS THERE TO PROMOTE, GIVES YOU AN IDEA.

THIS IS THE MOUNTAIN COMING TO MOHAMMED, AND IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF THE RELATIVE POWER IN THIS RELATIONSHIP.

>> EVEN MORE, ONE COULD ARGUE, FOR THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER TO VISIT TRUMP IN HIS OWN COUNTRY.

>> LITTLE HUMILIATING.

>> BUT YES, THEY ALSO MANAGED TO HAVE A SOMEWHAT WARMER RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THESE TWO MEN, KIER STARMER AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.

PRESIDENT TRUMP PRAISED HIM EFFUSIVELY, AND HIS FAMILY, AND WENT ON TO SAY THAT THIS IS WHERE HIS MOTHER IS FROM.

FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP, IT REALLY DOES COME DOWN TO PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS AS WELL.

TALK ABOUT THAT AMONG THE EU MEMBER STATES, BECAUSE HE IS CLOSER WITH THE NEW CHANCELLOR IN GERMANY.

BUT, OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE EU, NOT SO MUCH.

IS THAT A NET NEGATIVE OVERALL?

>> WELL, THE WHOLE POINT OF POWER IS TO PROVIDE DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

THE EUROPEAN UNION ON TRADE IS A SOLID BLOCK.

SO, IT WAS DOING THE NEGOTIATIONS.

HE LIKES KIER STARMER, BUT BRITAIN IS A LESS IMPORTANT ISSUE.

HE IS PROUD OF HIS MOTHER, HE HAS GOLF COURSES THERE, HE HAS A STATE VISIT WHERE HE WILL RIDE IN A CARRIAGE AT WINDSOR AND ME TO THE KING, TRUMP LOVES ALL OF THIS STUFF.

THE EUROPEAN UNION IS BASICALLY LAWYERS AND TRADE NEGOTIATORS.

THEY HAVE POWER AND WHILE HE CAN SAY THAT HE LOVES BRITAIN, HE HAS SAID OFTEN THAT HE REALLY HATES THE EUROPEAN UNION.

HE WAS ORGANIZED TO SCREW THE UNITED STATES, DIRECT QUOTE.

BECAUSE IT DOES REPRESENT AN IMPORTANT TRADING BLOCK.

SO, THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE MALONEY IN ITALY, FRIEDRICH MERTZ, IN GERMANY, WHO GET ON WITH HIM, AND YOU SHOULD INCLUDE VICTOR OR BONN, TWO, ONE OF HIS SOULMATES FROM HUNGARY.

BUT, THE EU IS BY ITSELF A LITTLE BIT DIVIDED.

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE, WHICH IS WHY THEY LET PEOPLE LIKE URSULA VON DER LEYEN AND SETH GOODRICH, THE TRADE NEGOTIATOR DO IT.

BUT, TRUMP DOESN'T REALLY LIKE THOSE PEOPLE.

IT WAS VERY HARD FOR URSULA VON DER LEYEN TO EVEN GET A MEETING WITH TRUMP, FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS, BECAUSE HE REALLY DOES NOT LIKE THE EUROPEAN UNION.

HE CONSIDERS IT KIND OF THE HEADQUARTERS OF NEOLIBERAL POLITICS, SHARED SOVEREIGNTY, YOU KNOW, HE IS A NATIONALIST AND A TRANSACTIONAL LIST.

SO, IN A WAY, FOR HIM TO HUMILIATE THE EU THIS WAY ALSO GIVES HIM A DEGREE OF PERSONAL PLEASURE.

>> WE HAVE HEARD AS MUCH FROM HIS VICE PRESIDENT, WHO REITERATED THOSE SENTIMENTS EARLIER THIS YEAR.

YOU MENTIONED VICTOR OR BONN, HE CALLED THIS DEAL, BASICALLY SAYING DONALD TRUMP EIGHT VON DER LEYEN FOR THE FIRST.

THE FRENCH PRIME MINISTER SAYS IT IS A SOMBER DAY WHEN AN ALLIANCE OF FREE PEOPLES BROUGHT TOGETHER TO AFFIRM COMMON INTERESTS RESIGNED ITSELF TO SUBMISSION.

AND THEN AS WE NOTED, THE EU TRADE COMMISSIONER SAYS HE IS 100% SURE THAT THIS DEAL WOULD BE BETTER THAN A TRADE WAR.

SO, OVERALL, DO YOU THINK HE IS RIGHT, AS OPPOSED TO THESE OTHER LEADERS WHO VIEW THIS AS THE PRESIDENT BELITTLING THE EU?

>> I THINK PART CRITICISM IS NOT FOR YESTERDAY.

IT IS THE COMMISSION AND VON DER LEYEN DECIDED NOT TO PUT IN COUNTERVAILING TARIFFS ON THE UNITED STATES RIGHT AWAY.

SO, IT SHOWED A DEGREE OF WEAKNESS.

NOW, THIS WAS IN THE INTEREST OF NEGOTIATION.

I THINK HAVING A TRADE WAR WOULD BE TERRIBLE FOR BOTH COUNTRIES, TO BE HONEST.

AND YOU KNOW, I THINK THE EU IS RIGHT ABOUT THAT, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF DOMESTIC NATIONAL CRITICISM FROM THE FRENCH, WHERE THERE IS A BIG PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION COMING UP.

VICTOR IS A EUROSCEPTIC.

HE DOES NOT LIKE BRUSSELS, HE WILL JUMP ON ANY POSSIBILITY TO CRITICIZE BRUSSELS.

AND, THERE IS ONE THING WE HAVE NOT REALLY DISCUSSED, WHICH IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS INTERESTED AND WORRIED THE EUROPEANS, WAS A CONNECTION A LOT OF TRUMP PEOPLE WERE MAKING, QUIETLY BUT EXPLICITLY, BETWEEN SECURITY PROVISIONS AND A TRADE DEAL.

TRUMP HIMSELF TALKED ABOUT THAT.

A LOT OF EUROPEANS, PARTICULARLY IN POLAND, IN THE BALTIC STATES, WHO SAID LOOK, LET'S DO THIS DEAL WITH THE AMERICANS, LET'S KEEP THEM HAPPY.

SOME OF WHAT TRUMP ANNOUNCED WON'T EVER HAPPEN.

THE EU DOES NOT HAVE BILLIONS TO INVEST.

THEY CAN BUY MORE ENERGY, WHICH IS A GOOD THING, BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL BUYING TOO MUCH RUSSIAN GAS, FRANKLY, BUT YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE PROMISES TRUMP MAKES AS HE USUALLY DOES, WILL THEY BE FOLLOWED UP ON?

IT'S HARD TO KNOW.

>> VIA.

THEY CERTAINLY KNOW HOW TO PLAY TAKE PLACATE HIM AT THIS POINT, TO SPEAK TO HIS PROCLIVITIES, STEPHEN, THANK YOU.

IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> ON THAT TRIP TO SCOTLAND, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CERTAINLY HAD PLENTY TO SAY HERE IS WHAT HE SAID ON VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> I HAVE SPOKEN TO PRESIDENT PUTIN A LOT.

I GET ALONG WITH HIM VERY WELL.

FIVE TIMES, --FOUR TIMES MAYBE, BUT WE HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS, YOU AND I HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS.

WE THOUGHT WE HAD THAT SETTLED NUMEROUS TIMES, AND THEN PRESIDENT PUTIN GOES OUT AND STARTS LAUNCHING ROCKETS INTO SOME CITY, LIKE KYIV, AND KILLED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN A NURSING HOME OR WHATEVER, YOU HAVE BODIES LYING ALL OVER THE STREET AND I SAY, THAT'S NOT THE WAY TO DO IT.

SO, WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH THAT.

I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED.

I AM DISAPPOINTED IN PRESIDENT PUTIN.

VERY DISAPPOINTED IN HIM.

SO, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AND I WILL REDUCE THAT 50 DAYS THAT I GAVE HIM TO A LESSER ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> SO, LITTLE HOPE OF PEACE, IT SEEMS, IN UKRAINE ANYTIME SOON.

MEANWHILE, THE COUNTRY'S STREETS FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE A FULL-SCALE INVASION, SERIOUS DOMESTIC UNREST IS UNFOLDING AS FLOODS OF PROTESTERS LAST WEEK VOICED OUTRAGE ABOUT A LAW TO REMOVE THE INDEPENDENCE OF TWO ANTICORRUPTION AGENCIES.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS NOW BACKTRACKED, INTRODUCING ANOTHER LAW TO RESTORE THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE AGENCIES.

MY NEXT GUEST HAS SPENT YEARS COMBATING CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE.

DIARRHEA IS THE COFOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ANTICORRUPTION ACTION CENTER, SHE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM KYIV.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

BEFORE WE GET INTO DOMESTIC POLITICS, THERE IS A LOT TO DISCUSS.

I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION TO THE SURPRISING STATEMENT AND ANNOUNCEMENT FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP WHERE HE NARROWED THE WINDOW OF TIME HE GAVE VLADIMIR PUTIN TO COME TO THE PEACE TALK DEAL FROM 50 DAYS, TO NOW DOWN TO HE SAID SECONDARY SANCTIONS WOULD BE LEVELED AGAINST ANY COUNTRIES BUYING ORAL -- BUYING OIL AND GAS FROM RUSSIA.

>> IT SOUNDS GOOD.

I WISH THERE WAS NO 10 OR 12 DAYS EITHER, BECAUSE VLADIMIR PUTIN MISSED SO MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO END THE WAR.

I DO HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL EXECUTE FORCE ON VLADIMIR PUTIN AND ON RUSSIA.

IN UKRAINE, WE WITNESSED EARLIER THIS YEAR THAT RUSSIA IS MORE ON UKRAINE, AND UKRAINIANS, AS NOBODY ELSE WANT TO END THE WAR, BUT WE WANT TO END THE WAR ON JUST AND FAIR TERMS, SO WE ARE NOT LOSING THE WAR.

>> WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THAT TO SEE IF HE DOES STAND BY THAT NEW POLICY OF PERHAPS NEW SANCTIONS BEING ANNOUNCED WITHIN A MATTER OF 10 TO 12 DAYS.

AS IT RELATES TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN UKRAINE IN THE LAST WEEK, WE SAW THE LARGEST ANTIGOVERNMENT PROTEST SINCE RUSSIA'S LARGE-SCALE INVASION IN 2022.

AGAIN, ALL RELATING TO A NEW LAW INTRODUCED WHICH WOULD TAKE AWAY THE INDEPENDENCE OF TWO ANTICORRUPTION ORGANIZATIONS.

IN AN INTERVIEW ON NBC, YOU SAID THAT THIS WAS A REDLINE THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAD CROSSED, UNDERMINING THE DEVELOPMENT OF UKRAINE.

STILL, THOUGH, TO HAVE SUCH A MASS NUMBER OF PEOPLE TAKE TO THE STREETS IN THE MIDDLE OF WAR WHICH HAS ONLY GROWN INCREASINGLY DEADLY, WHAT DOES THAT SAY, ABOUT HOW UKRAINIANS VIEW THIS ACTION, AND THE FIGHT AGAINST CORRUPTION IN THE COUNTRY?

>> I THINK IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE.

THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE ARE THE SOURCE OF POWER AND OF PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY FORGETS ABOUT THAT, THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE GO TO THE STREETS DESPITE THE LARGE-SCALE WAR AND REMIND HIM OF HOW TO SERVE HIS PEOPLE.

I AM PROUD OF MY PEOPLE, AND PROUD OF THEIR YOUNG PEOPLE, NOT ONLY THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO THE RALLIES OUR YOUNGSTERS AND TEENAGERS, PEOPLE IN THEIR EARLY 20s, AND THEY STOOD UP, NOT AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.

IT IS NOT ANTIGOVERNMENT PROTEST.

IT IS THE PROTEST AGAINST THE LAW WHICH DESTROYS THE INDEPENDENCE OF ANTICORRUPTION VOICES.

THESE ARE THE PROTEST TO HAVE JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS AND THE RALLY FOR GOOD POLICIES, FOR RULE OF LAW AND GOOD GOVERNANCE.

THIS IS WHERE THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY WANT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TO STAY FIRM ON AND NOT DO ANY BACKSLIDING.

>> HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THE TIMING?

WHY INTRODUCE THIS LAW NOW?

>> IT IS NOT OUT OF THE BLUE.

WE ARE WITNESSING SOME BACKSLIDING IN THE ZELENSKYY ADMINISTRATION, WITH OTHER, AND IT IS GOOD THAT THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE ACTUALLY STOOD UP, BECAUSE I WOULD EXPECT EVEN WORSE THINGS HAPPENING LATER ON, IF ZELENSKYY WOULD HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT HE IS A SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE.

PARTIALLY, THAT COULD BE BACKSLIDING WITH ZELENSKYY UNDERSTANDING THERE MIGHT BE AN END OF THE WAR AND IT COULD BE RELATED TO THE POSTWAR ELECTIONS, AND FOR ZELENSKYY, HE WILL NEED TO RUN FOR ELECTIONS, AND IN DEMOCRATIC FAIR AND JUST ELECTIONS IT WILL BE HARD FOR HIM TO WIN.

THEREFORE, HAVING INDEPENDENT ANTICORRUPTION INSTITUTIONS WHICH CAN INVESTIGATE CLOSE ASSOCIATES COULD BE A PROBLEM FOR ZELENSKYY, THAT COULD BE ONE OF THE REASONS.

ANOTHER REASON COULD BE THAT, FOR THE UNITED STATES, IT IS NOT MORE A PRIORITY TO HAVE GOOD GOVERNANCE AND ANTICORRUPTION LAWS.

USUALLY, THE U.S. WOULD BE ONE OF THE TOP SUPPORTERS FOR THESE REFORMS.

BOTH FINANCIAL SUPPORT, BUT ALSO THE LEVERAGE, AND IT WOULD BE STARTING FROM THE EMBASSY, HERE ON THE GROUND IN KYIV, AND THEN TO THE PRESIDENT, PRIORITIZING THESE REFORMS, AND SPEAKING DIRECTLY AND STRAIGHTFORWARD TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, OR THE PAST PRESIDENTS IF THERE WERE ANY BACKSLIDING.

SO, THIS LEVERAGE, THE PUSH FOR GOOD GOVERNANCE AND ANTICORRUPTION REFORMS FROM INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS INCLUDING THE U.S. AND THE PUSH FROM UKRAINIAN CIVIL SOCIETY FOR GOOD GOVERNANCE REFORMS CAUSES SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS IN UKRAINE FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS AFTER THE REVOLUTION OF DIGNITY.

WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN THAT DESPITE THE WAR.

>> IT MAY NOT BE A TOP PRIORITY FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT WE KNOW IT REMAINS ONE IN THE EU, AND UKRAINE'S GOAL OF ALSO, THE IMF WATCHING CLOSELY, THE EU RECENTLY SUSPENDED ABOUT $1.7 BILLION IN AID.

HOW BIG OF A THREAT WITH THAT HAVE BEEN, FOR UKRAINE, AS A WHOLE, IF THEY HAD ACTUALLY DISTANCED THEMSELVES BY THESE ACTIONS, FROM THE EU?

>> AN ABSOLUTE MAJORITY OF UKRAINIANS, MORE THAN 90%, WANT UKRAINE TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE EU.

THE SOCIOLOGY ALSO SAYS UKRAINIANS WANT REFORMS TO BE DONE ON THE WAY TO THE EU.

WE ARE FINE WITH GIVING UP PART OF OUR SOVEREIGNTY IN EXCHANGE FOR BENEFITS, SECURITY GUARANTEES AND SOME DIGNITY AND QUALITY OF LIFE, WHICH THE EU IS PROVIDING.

UKRAINIAN SOCIETY IS A VERY DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

WE ARE NOT ACCEPTING AUTHORITARIAN STYLES OF RULE, AND EVEN DURING THE LARGE-SCALE WAR, IT IS OUR STRENGTH, WHEN CHARITY FOUNDATIONS ARE COLLECTING DONATIONS TO BUY DRONES FOR FORCES.

THAT IS COMING FROM THE GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT IN UKRAINE.

WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN OUR DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU DO HAVE A HISTORY OF CORRUPTION IN THE COUNTRY, HENCE THE POSITION THAT YOU ARE IN AND THE JOB THAT YOU HAVE.

WHAT IS THE STATE OF CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE TODAY?

>> OBVIOUSLY THERE IS STILL CORRUPTION, AS IN EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

HOWEVER, UNTIL THIS LAW WAS ADOPTED, THERE WAS A SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES.

SO IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT BODY WHICH CAN INVESTIGATE.

WHEN THE NATIONAL ANTICORRUPTION BUREAU CHARGED THE VICE PRIME MINISTER WHICH IS A CLOSE FRIEND OF ZELENSKYY, THAT WAS IN AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE, THAT UKRAINE, YES THERE IS CORRUPTION, BUT THERE IS A SYSTEM THAT CAN TACKLE IT, REGARDLESS OF WHO IS ENGAGED IN CORRUPTION.

THE ISSUE OF CORRUPTION.

THE PREVIOUS REVOLUTION IN UKRAINE, THE REVOLUTION OF DIGNITY, WAS ALSO A REVOLUTION AGAINST CORRUPTION AND CLIPPED AUTOCRACY.

WE HAVE MADE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF TOOLS ON TRANSPARENCY, AND ACCOUNTABILITY, AND THESE ANTICORRUPTION BODIES WHICH WE HAVE TO PROTECT.

>> WE DO KNOW THAT A NEW BILL TO RESTORE INDEPENDENCE HAS BEEN INTRODUCED, I BELIEVE IT WILL BE VOTED ON THIS THURSDAY, LAVISHLY WE WILL BE WATCHING THIS VERY CLOSELY AS WELL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> TEXAS REPUBLICANS ARE BREAKING TRADITION AS THEY PLAN TO REDRAW CONGRESSIONAL MAPS AHEAD OF NEXT YEAR'S MIDTERMS.

IT IS A MOVE THAT MANY WERE NOT EXPECTING UNTIL THE END OF THE DECADE, BUT IT COMES AT THE BEHEST OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO IS HOPING TO KEEP THE NARROW GOP HOUSE MAJORITY INTACT.

DEMOCRATS ARE TRYING TO PUSH UNUSUAL REDISTRICTING DRIVE COMPLETELY UNETHICAL AND DEPLORABLE.

DAVID DALY IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE ORGANIZATION FAIR VOTE, AND HE JOINS US TO IMPACT THIS DECISION.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

LAST WEEK IN TEXAS THERE WAS AN EXTENSION OF A LEGISLATIVE SESSION AND REDISTRICTING IS BACK ON THAT.

I THINK THAT CAUGHT A FEW PEOPLE BY SURPRISE, BECAUSE WE ARE USED TO REDISTRICTING BEING A ONCE IN 10 YEARS EVENT.

>> THAT IS WHAT REDISTRICTING IS IN MOST STATES BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE IN TEXAS.

THERE ARE A HANDFUL OF STATES WHERE YOU CAN DO A MIDDECADE REDISTRICTING.

THERE IS USUALLY TENDS TO BE DOUBLY POLITICAL.

RIGHT?

GERRYMANDERING TAKES PLACE AFTER THE CENSUS IN STATE LEGISLATURES, OFTEN TIMES LOCKS IN POLITICAL MAPS FOR A DECADE, BUT WHEN YOU DO THIS IN THE MIDDLE OF A DECADE YOU HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THE PREVIOUS COUPLE ELECTIONS, YOU CAN TELL WHICH SEATS ARE COMPETITIVE, AND IT GIVES YOU A REAL ADVANTAGE TO TAKE ANOTHER CRACK AT THOSE THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN TEXAS RIGHT NOW.

IT COULD HAVE REAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THE MIDTERMS ELECTIONS IN 2026.

>> SO I DON'T LOSE MY OVERSEAS AUDIENCE, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT THAT FAMILIAR WITH REDISTRICTING VERSUS GERRYMANDERING.

FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF REDRAWING MAP LINES FOR ESTATE AND CREATING NEW HOUSE DISTRICTS.

>> IT HAS A WONDERFUL IDEA BEHIND IT.

EVERY 10 YEARS AFTER THE CENSUS, WE WANT TO REDRAW EVERY CONGRESSIONAL AND STATE LEGISLATIVE STRICT IN THE COUNTRY IN ORDER TO ACCOUNT FOR POPULATION CHANGES IN POPULATION SHIFTS OVER PREVIOUS DECADES.

SO, IT ESSENTIALLY HAS FAIRNESS, REALLY AT ITS CORE.

THE TROUBLE IS THE POLITICIANS WHO DRAW THESE LINES, ESPECIALLY THESE DAYS, WITH THE KINDS OF TECHNOLOGY AND VOTER DATA AND SOPHISTICATED MAPPING SYSTEMS THAT THEY HAVE, CAN USE THIS PROCESS NOT TO CREATE AN ACTUAL FAIR MAP, OR A COMPETITIVE MAP, BUT TO LOCK IN A PART IS AN ADVANTAGE FOR THEIR SIDE.

THOSE ADVANTAGES HAVE ONLY BECOME BIGGER AND BIGGER AS THE TECHNOLOGY HAS IMPROVED, AND THAT IS GERRYMANDERING.

THAT IS THE USE OF REDISTRICTING IN ORDER TO LOCK IN POLITICAL BENEFITS.

>> SO, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DRAWING A MAP IN TEXAS, AND NATIONAL POLITICS, ARE YOU SAYING THIS IS BECAUSE, IF I CAN MAKE SURE THAT I HAVE A DISTRICT THAT IS MORE LIKELY TO GO REPUBLICAN, OR MORE LIKELY TO GO DEMOCRAT, THEN I CAN ESSENTIALLY SECURE MORE SEATS IN THE U.S. HOUSE, AND RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A VERY SMALL IMBALANCE WHERE REPUBLICANS HAVE AN ADVANTAGE BY JUST A COUPLE OF VOTES.

IF THEY WERE ABLE TO, WHAT, CREATE ENTIRELY NEW DISTRICTS, THEY WOULD JUST PAD THAT LEAD?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

RIGHT NOW, REPUBLICANS HAVE A 3 SEAT ADVANTAGE IN THE U.S. HOUSE.

DEMOCRATS ONLY HAVE TO FLIP A HANDFUL OF SEATS IN THE 2026 MIDTERMS IN ORDER TO TAKE BACK THE CHAMBER.

ORDINARILY, THE PARTY THAT IS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE DOES PRETTY WELL DURING THE TERMS.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE 2018 MIDTERMS, REALLY GOOD FOR DEMOCRATS, THE 2010 MIDTERMS, REALLY GOOD FOR REPUBLICANS., IF YOU CAN GO INTO TEXAS, AND DO A MID-DECADE REDRAW, AND TAKE SOMEPLACE BETWEEN 2 TO 5 DEMOCRATIC SEATS OFF THE BOARD, SUDDENLY YOU HAVE MOVED THE REPUBLICAN ADVANTAGE FROM THREE SEATS, TO SOMEWHERE CLOSER TO SIX OR SEVEN.

THERE IS ALSO LIKELY TO BE A NEW MAP COMING OUT OF OHIO THAT COULD FLIP TWO CLOSE DEMOCRATIC SEATS THERE, AND THERE IS A REALLY IMPORTANT VOTING RIGHTS ACT REDISTRICTING CASE THAT THE U.S. SUPREME COURT WILL HEAR BEGINNING IN THE FALL, THAT COULD LEAD TO THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MAJORITY MINORITY BLACK DEMOCRATIC SEATS IN LOUISIANA AND PERHAPS ELSEWHERE ACROSS THE SOUTH.

SO, WHEN WE SAY RIGHT NOW, KRATZ NEED TO FLIP THREE SEATS, THAT IS ON THE CURRENT MAP.

THAT COULD REALLY CHANGE.

DEMOCRATS COULD BE LOOKING AT HAVING TO PICK UP CLOSER TO A DOZEN SEATS TO WIN THE HOUSE, AND THAT GETS MUCH HARDER, BECAUSE THERE IS NOT MUCH COMPETITIVE SEATS OUT THERE DUE TO ALL OF THE GERRYMANDERING.

>> THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE SENT GOVERNOR ABBOTT A LETTER EARLIER THIS MONTH, EXPRESS AND SERIOUS CONCERNS REGARDING THE LEGALITY OF FOUR OF THE TEXAS CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

THEY BASICALLY SAID THESE ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL RACIAL GERRYMANDERING?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT THE GERRYMANDERING LETTER IS TO KEEP COVER HERE.

I WOULD NOT CALL THOSE DISTRICTS RACIAL GERRYMANDERING, I WOULD CALL THOSE MAJORITY MINORITY SEATS THAT ARE DRAWN IN ORDER TO KEEP TEXAS IN LINE WITH THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

>> IN A STATEMENT, THE TEXAS REPUBLICAN PARTY SAYS THIS LATEST ROUND OF REDISTRICTING IS AN ESSENTIAL STEP TO PRESERVING GOP CONTROL IN CONGRESS, AND ADVANCING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S AMERICA FIRST AGENDA.

IN A WAY IT IS A VERY HONEST DECLARATION OF THEIR INTENTIONS.

BUT, IT IS ALSO VERY PARTISAN.

IS IT LEGAL?

>> IT IS VERY PARTISAN AND IT IS VERY LEGAL.

FIRST, IT IS VERY LEGAL, BECAUSE TEXAS ALLOWS THIS KIND OF MIDDECADE REDISTRICTING, BUT, SECOND, THAT ENTIRE STATEMENT IS ON THE TABLE RIGHT NOW U.S. SUPREME COURT.

IN A DECISION IN 2019, A CASE FROM NORTH CAROLINA CALLED COMMON CAUSE, THE COURT SAID PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING IS A NONJUSTICIABLE POLITICAL ISSUE.

THEY CLOSED THE FEDERAL COURTS TO THESE CLAIMS, AND THEY DID SO AT EXACTLY THE MOMENT IN WHICH LOWER FEDERAL COURTS, JUDGES APPOINTED BY PRESIDENTS OF BOTH PARTIES MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY HAD ALL THE TOOLS THEY NEEDED TO DETERMINE WHEN A PART IS AN GERRYMANDER HAD GONE TOO FAR.

THEY THROUGHOUT DEMOCRATIC GERRYMANDER'S IN MARYLAND, THEY THROUGHOUT REPUBLICAN GERRYMANDER'S IN OHIO AND MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN, AND THEY HAD A RANGE OF EVIDENCE AND THEY SAID, WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS, AND JOHN ROBERTS AND THE COURT SAID NO.

THEY SAID THAT THESE STANDARDS AND MEASURES WERE SOCIOLOGICAL GOBBLEDYGOOK.

THEY SAID IT WAS GOING TO LOOK LIKE THE COURTS WERE BEING POLITICAL.

SUPREME COURT THAT WAS BEING POLITICAL.

THEY LOCKED IN THESE GAINS FOR REPUBLICANS, THEY INCENTIVIZED BOTH PARTIES IN 2021 TO MAXIMIZE GERRYMANDERING, KNOWING THAT NOBODY WOULD STOP THEM, AND THEY ENCOURAGED STATEMENTS LIKE THE ONE WE SEE FROM THE TEXAS GOP, BECAUSE, WHEN POLITICIANS NOW SAY THAT WE ARE DOING AN INTENTIONAL PART IS AN GERRYMANDER, THAT IS EXACTLY IN LINE WITH THE DECISION THAT ROBERTS HANDED DOWN.

HE MADE THIS POSSIBLE.

THE COURT ENABLED THIS ATTACK ON DEMOCRACY, THAT BOTH PARTIES ARE ENGAGED IN RIGHT NOW.

>> IF THE DEMOCRATS DON'T LIKE --FELT LIKE THAT CORTEZ WAS A LOSS FOR THEM, THEY WERE CONTROLLING CONGRESS IN 21 PASS LEGISLATION AGAINST GERRYMANDERING?

YOU COULD HAVE CONCEIVABLY SEEN THAT AS A BIPARTISAN SOURCE OF AGREEMENT BECAUSE BOTH SIDES REALIZE THAT THIS IS THIS TECHNOLOGICAL WARFARE THAT KEEPS ESCALATING.

>> I WISH THEY HAD.

CERTAINLY WHAT YOU SAW AT THAT POINT IN TIME WAS A REAL PUBLIC PUSH ON THIS.

YOU HAD MICHIGAN AND COLORADO, UTAH AND MISSOURI, VIRGINIA, VOTERS IN ALL OF THOSE STATES, VOTING TO TRY TO REIN IN THE WORST EXCESSES OF THIS SYSTEM, AND YOU KNOW, RED STATES AND BLUE STATES, VOTERS HATE GERRYMANDERING EVERYPLACE.

AND DEMOCRATS ATTEMPTED TO INCLUDE THIS IN SOME OF THE VOTING RIGHTS PACKAGES THAT THEY WERE ADVANCING BACK IN 2021.

THEY DID NOT MAKE IT THROUGH THE SENATE, I BELIEVE LARGELY BECAUSE OF THE FILIBUSTER.

YOU DID NOT HAVE EVERYBODY ON BOARD FOR THAT KIND OF CHANGE.

THIS IS A NATIONAL PROBLEM.

IT NEEDS A NATIONAL SOLUTION.

IT CANNOT BE FIXED PIECEMEAL, STATE-BY-STATE, AND WHEN THE COURTS PULL THEMSELVES OUT OF THIS, IT REALLY TOOK AWAY THE LAST BEST POSSIBILITY OF A NEUTRAL ARBITER COMING IN AND TRYING TO ENFORCE A STANDARD.

IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT FOR POLITICIANS TO AND GERRYMANDERING.

THEY BENEFIT FROM IT.

THEY LIKE IT.

IF WE ARE GOING TO FIX IT, IT NEEDS A NATIONAL PROBLEM AND IT NEEDS TO TAKE ON THE REAL FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION, HERE, WHICH IS THAT IN A NATION THAT HAS 435 SINGLE-MEMBER DISTRICTS, HOW YOU DRAW THE LINES IN ALL OF THOSE DISTRICTS DETERMINES WINNERS AND LOSERS.

THERE IS A BILL THAT CONGRESS IS CONSIDERING RIGHT NOW, THE FAIR REPRESENTATION ACT POSED BY DON BIER AND JAMIE RASKIN, THAT WOULD MOVE US TOWARDS A MORE PROPORTIONAL SYSTEM, THAT WOULD MAKE EVERY DISTRICT A SWING DISTRICT.

IT WOULD PUT AN END TO GERRYMANDERING, AND BY THE WAY, IT ALSO CALLS FOR AN END TO MIDDECADE REDISTRICTING EVERYPLACE.

I THINK THAT IS THE KIND OF BIG PICTURE THINKING THAT THIS REQUIRES.

>> WHAT WOULD BE THE IMPACT, IF GOVERNOR NEWSOM, SAY, IN CALIFORNIA OR GOVERNOR MURPHY IN NEW JERSEY TRIED TO COUNTER WHATEVER HAPPENS IN TEXAS?

>> IT WOULD BE ADDITIONALLY BAD FOR VOTERS IN ALL OF THOSE STATES.

I THINK THE ROAD IN CALIFORNIA IS VERY DIFFICULT.

CALIFORNIA HAS A KNOWN PART IS AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION DRAW ITS LINES.

IF CALIFORNIA WANTS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, THEY WOULD EITHER HAVE TO HAVE A SPECIAL ELECTION TO CHANGE THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM, OR, THE LEGISLATURE WOULD HAVE TO FIND SOME KIND OF FIG LEAF TO SUGGEST THEY CAN DO A MIDDECADE REDISTRICTING ON THEIR OWN, ABOVE AND BEYOND THE COMMISSION.

THAT WOULD CERTAINLY WIND UP IN COURT, AND I CANNOT IMAGINE THAT THE LEGISLATURE WOULD WIN.

NEW JERSEY COULD DO THE SAME THING.

THEY HAVE A COMMISSION, THE STATE LEGISLATURE COULD TRY TO STEP IN, BUT, I THINK THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE REALLY MAXIMIZED THEIR GAINS ON A LOT OF THESE MAPS IT IS CURRENTLY A 9-3 DEMOCRATIC DELEGATION IN NEW JERSEY.

IT IS A 14-3 DEMOCRATIC DELEGATION IN ILLINOIS.

IT IS A 7-1 IN MARYLAND.

THERE IS NOT A LOT OF BLUE STATES FOLLOWING WHERE DEMOCRATS CAN DO WHAT PUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO DO, IN TEXAS.

IT IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO FIND A WAY TO MATCH THIS.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CRITICS OF WHAT THE REPUBLICAN'S ARE TRYING IN TEXAS, SAYING LOOK, THE PHRASE IS A DUMMYMANDER.

>> IS A GREAT TERM.

A DUMMYMANDER IS A GERRYMANDER DRAWN FOR ONE SIDE, BUT THEN IT BACKFIRES.

YOU SPREAD YOUR VOTES TOO THIN AND YOU GET TOO GREEDY TRYING FOR TOO MANY SEATS.

I THINK THIS IS UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN IN TEXAS.

I THINK THE FACT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT IN MANY WAYS IS A SIGN THAT DEMOCRATS DON'T HAVE A LOT OF GOOD OPTIONS, HERE, OTHER THAN TO TRY TO TELL REPUBLICANS, WELL, BE CAREFUL.

THIS MIGHT NOT WORK.

IT MIGHT BACKFIRE ON YOU.

TEXAS HAS A 25-13 REPUBLICAN DELEGATION.

ONLY ONE OF THOSE 25 REPUBLICAN SEATS IS REMOTELY COMPETITIVE.

ONE SEAT WAS WON AT 57% OF THE VOTE IN 2024.

OF THE OTHER 24 SEATS, ALL OF THEM WERE ONE COAT WITH MORE THAN 60% OF THE VOTE.

13 OF THOSE SEATS WERE ONE COAT WITH MORE THAN 65% OF THE VOTE, OR WERE COMPLETE THE UNCONTESTED AT ALL.

IF REPUBLICANS WANT TO DO THIS, THE TWO SOUTH TEXAS DISTRICTS, THE 34th AND 20 A FOR THE DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS, YOU COULD WIPE THOSE AWAY PRETTY QUICKLY.

IF YOU WANTED TO GO FOR A THIRD OR A FOURTH SEAT, WHAT YOU WOULD DO IS GO UP TOWARDS DALLAS-FORT WORTH, YOU WOULD TAKE A LITTLE PIECE OF THE CITY AND THEN YOU WOULD ATTACH IT TO A BIG SWATH OF CENTRAL EASTERN TEXAS, THOSE RED DISTRICTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE ALMOST ENTIRELY UNCONTESTED BY DEMOCRATS.

BIG REPUBLICAN COUNTIES.

SO, I THINK THAT YOU COULD PROBABLY GET TO FOUR SEATS WITHOUT EVEN PUTTING MENDER ON THE TABLE.

REPUBLICANS HAVE NOT DRAWN A DUMMYMANDER IN THE MODERN TECHNOLOGICAL ERA.

THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT THIS.

THE CONSULTANT THEY BROUGHT ON IN 2021 TO WORK ON THEIR MAPS, IT'S THE SAME CONSULTANT WHO DREW THE MAPS IN WISCONSIN.

A MAP THAT HAS WITHSTOOD DEMOCRATIC WAVES, AND NEVER COME CLOSE TO BACKFIRING.

I THINK THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A DUMMYMANDER, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN MORE APT TO HAPPEN IN THE 1990S OR THE TO THOUSANDS, NOT REALLY GOING TO HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SAY LISTEN, THE MAPS GET GERRYMANDERED EVERY 10 YEARS.

IN 2018 WE HAD A FEW TIMES WHERE DEMOCRATS OVERCAME SOME OF THOSE.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

DEMOCRATS TOOK BACK THE HOUSE IN 2018, BUT I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE ABOUT IS THAT DEMOCRATS WERE ABLE TO WIN THAT BACK, NOT BECAUSE THEY DEFEATED GERRYMANDERING, OR BECAUSE THESE MAPS BACKFIRED, BUT, IT IS BECAUSE DEMOCRATS AND CITIZENS DEFEATED THESE MAPS IN COURT, AHEAD OF TIME.

SO, YOU HAD COURT CASES THAT CREATED FARRAR MAPS AND GOT RID OF THE GERRYMANDERED MAPS IN PENNSYLVANIA, AND PARTS OF FLORIDA, AND VIRGINIA, AND NORTH CAROLINA.

SO, THE MATH IN 2018 WAS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE MAP ELSEWHERE.

DEMOCRATS ALSO WON THAT YEAR BECAUSE THEY WERE ABLE TO WIN ABOUT 75% OF THE SEATS THAT THEY FLIPPED --WERE DRAWN BY COURTS, OR DRAWN BY COMMISSIONS.

SO, THEY MAXIMIZED THEIR GAINS IN THE FAIR, COMPETITIVE DISTRICT WHERE IT WAS STILL POSSIBLE TO DO THAT.

THEY DID NOT REALLY MAKE ANY GAINS AT ALL ON GERRYMANDERED MAPS.

THEY WERE ABLE TO WIN BACK TWO SEATS IN TEXAS AND TWO SEATS IN MICHIGAN, THAT WAY.

FOUR OF THEM.

AND THAT IS ALL THAT THESE MAPS SURRENDERED OVER A DECADE, IN ALL OF THESE STATES, AND ALL OF THESE ELECTIONS.

THOSE DISTRICTS DON'T EXIST ANYMORE.

REPUBLICANS IN 2021 WENT INTO INDIANA AND INTO OKLAHOMA AND KANSAS, THEY WENT INTO UTAH, THESE SEATS THAT WENT TO DEMOCRATS IN 2018, IN THAT WAVE, THEY WERE REDRAWN.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GO BACK THE OTHER WAY.

SO, THERE IS A REALLY SMALL POOL OF SEATS FOR DEMOCRATS TO GO AFTER.

YOU HAD 37 OF 435 RACES IN 2024, THAT WERE WITHIN 5%.

DEMOCRATS ALREADY ONE COAT 22 OF THOSE, THAT YEAR.

IT LEAVES YOU WITH 15 THERE WERE ONLY THREE DISTRICTS IN WHICH A REPUBLICAN WAS ELECTED, BUT KAMALA HARRIS CARRIED THE DISTRICT.

THAT WAS DON BACON'S SEAT IN NEBRASKA, MICHAEL LAWLER IN NEW YORK, BRIAN FITZPATRICK IN PENNSYLVANIA.

SO, YOU COULD GIVE IT A SHOT.

BUT, THE NUMBER OF TARGETS THAT HAVE MANY VOTERS YOU WOULD HAVE TO PERSUADE IN THESE DISTRICTS, VERY DIFFICULT AT THIS POINT.

>> SENIOR FELLOW AFFAIR AUTHORS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> FINALLY, A HERO'S WELCOME FOR ENGLAND'S CHAMPION FOOTBALL TEAM, THE LIONESSES, WHO BROUGHT HOME THEIR SECOND STRAIGHT EUROS TROPHY, WINNING A DRAMATIC PENALTY SHOOTOUT AGAINST SPAIN ON SUNDAY.

THEY ARE BACK TO CELEBRATE ON HOME TURF AHEAD OF A WELL-OFF WELL-DESERVED VICTORY PARADE IN LONDON ON TUESDAY.

FANS ARE STILL BUZZING AFTER A TOURNAMENT WHICH THRILLED AND THE LIONESSES VICTORY CONCLUDED A RECORD-BREAKING EUROS, WITH OVER 650,000 FANS CHEERING ON WOMEN'S FOOTBALL IN SWITZERLAND.

BE SURE TO TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR MY CONVERSATION WITH COUNTRY SINGER-SONGWRITER MARGO PRYCE, FRESH FROM THE NEWPORT FOLK FESTIVAL, SHE SAT DOWN WITH ME IN NEW YORK CITY TO DISCUSS POLITICS, EMPOWERMENT, AND HER NEW RECORD, HARDHEADED WOMAN.

IT'S A LOVELY CONVERSATION, BE SURE TO TUNE IN FOR THAT.

THAT IS A FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.