>>> IT WASN'T SO LONG AGO THAT LAWMAKERS BOTH PARTY WAS WARNING ABOUT THE DANGERS OF TIKTOK.

THE HUGELY POPULAR APP OWNED BY A CHINESE BASED COMPANY.

LATELY SAYS OUR NEXT GUEST THE ALARM BELLS HAVE GONE SILENT.

GLENN WAS GENERAL COUNSEL OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY AND HERE IS HE WITH WALTER.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU HAVE AN ESSAY IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT THE TIKTOK BAN AND WHY IT HASN'T TAKEN PLACE.

IT'S --YOU KNOW THE VIDEO APP THAT HALF THE COUNTRY I THINK USES.

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BANNED.

WHY IS IT STILL IN OPERATION?

>> THIS IS A COMPLETELY CRAZY SADA.

IT SHOWS HOW WE APPROACH CHINESE TECH.

THIS WAS SUCH A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT JUST 15 OR 16 MONTHS AGO THAT BIPARTISAN MAJORITIES OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE DECIDED THAT THIS APP PRESENTED SUCH A RISK OF CHINESE INTERFERENCE AND POSSIBLE THEFT OF DATA THAT IT HADO BE BANNED IN NINE MONTHS IN IT DIDN'T GET OUT OF CHINESE HANDS.

IT WAS A VERY SERIOUS NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT THAT WAS REALLY URGENT AND THE CONGRESS TOOK UNPRECEDENTED --ADOPTED UNPRECEDENTED LEGISLATION.

WE HAVE NEVER BANNED A SOCIAL MEDIA APP BEFORE.

HERE WE ARE NOW JUST 15 OR 16 MONTHS LATER AND THE BANNED APP IS STILL IN GOOGLE'S APP STORE AND APPLE'S APP STORE.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS SAID HE WILL CONTINUE TO EXTEND THE BAN, NOT APPLY IT.

HE HAS DIRECTED HIS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO NOT ENFORCE THE BAN WHILE HE SEARCHES FOR A DEAL TO TAKE IT OUT OF CHINESE HANDS.

>> LET'S START WITH THE UNDERLYING QUESTION, NOT WHETHER THE LAW IS ENFORCED OR NOT FIRST WHICH IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH TIKTOK?

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BAN IT?

>> CRITICS HAVE POINTED OUT TO AT LEAST TWOOER THREE THINGS.

ONE IS BECAUSE IT'S OWNED BY -- OWNED BY A CHINESE COMPANY WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE PRC GOVERNMENT AND TO THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY THERE'S A FEAR THAT CHINA COULD DIRECT THEM TO DIRECT TIKTOK TO SEND MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION ON THE APP.

PERHAPS IN VERY SUBTLE WAYS.

YOU CAN IMAGINE A CASE WHERE CHINA IS THINKING OF INVADING T AI WAN SO FOR SIX MONTHS IT STARTS TO VERY SLOWLY INTRODUCE VIDEOS ON TIKTOK NOT DIRECTLY OUTRAGEOUS BUT JUST SUGGESTING THAT TIE IT'S NOT A GREAT PLACE, IT'S CORRUPT AND CHANGE PUBLIC OPINION.

THAT'S ONE CONCERN.

THE SECOND IS THAT CHINA BECAUSE IT'S NATIONAL SECURITY LAW GIVES IT POWER TO DO SO COULD DIRECT THE CORPORATE OWN OWNER TO TURNOVER ALL THE DATA IT COLLECTS AND TURN THAT INFORMATION OVER TO CHINA.

>> LET'S START WITH THAT ONE.

TURNING OVER THE DATA.

WHAT --IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THEY HAVE DONE THAT?

>> THERE'S NO DIRECT EVIDENCE THAT ANY OF THIS DATA HAS BEEN TURNED OVER IN A WHOLE SALE BASIS OR THAT ITS BEEN DIRECTED TO TURNOVER THE DATA.

THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW INSTANCES SOME USER DATA ABOUT AMERICANS WAS SENT TO CHINA AND ANALYZED.

IT SEEMS TO BE ISOLATED AND IF YOU BELIEVE TIKTOK THE UNITED STATES DATA IS NOT SENT OFF TO CHINA BUT IS EITHER KEPT IN SINGAPORE OR IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YOU SAID IF YOU BELIEVE THEM AND THEY SAY ONLY VETTED EMPLOYEES CAN GET VERY SPECIFIC THINGS AND IT'S OTHERWISE IN THE UNITED STATES DIVISION.

DO WE BELIEVE THEM?

>> I THINK MOST NATIONAL SECURITY PROFESSIONALS SAY THAT IT'S UNREALISTIC TO THINK THAT TIKTOK WOULD REFUSE A DIRECT ORDER OF THE GOVERNMENT OF CHINA TAKE TURNOVER DATA.

IF IF THERE WAS A CRISIS WHERE CHINA WANTED TO GET DATA PERHAPS IT COULD REVEAL INTERESTING TRENDS.

THEY PROBABLY AREN'T INTERESTED IN WHICH DANCE VIDEO A TEEN IN WICHITA LOOKS LIKE.

A LOT OF GOVERNMENTS HAVE ACCOUNTS.

IT COULD BE POSSIBLE TO TRACE WHO WATCHES CERTAINLY GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTS.

PERHAPS THEY COULD COMBINE THAT WITH OTHER DATA THAT THEY COLLECT ON PEOPLE TO FIGURE OUT WHO WAS A CIA AGENT, WHO IS IN THE AMERICAN MILITARY, ET CETERA.

YOU COULD SEE A BAD USE.

>> IN YOUR PIECE YOU KIND OF CALL THAT OVER HYPED IN A WAY.

IS IT?

>> YOU KNOW I THINK --TO SOME EXTENT YES.

THERE IS A RISK.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY THERE IS NO RISK.

THE RISK OF IT BEING TURNED OVER IN A MEANINGFUL WAY THAT WILL HAVE STRATEGIC VALUE TO CHINA IS PRETTY LOW.

YES OF COURSE IN A CONFLICT IT COULD BE DANGEROUS BUT WE COULD SHUT IT OFF IF WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF A CONFLICT.

MY GUESS IS THAT IT'S A RISK, SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE AWARE OF.

WITH VERY WAYS OF MITIGATING THE RISK.

MY CONCERN IS MORE ABOUT THE DISINFORMATION.

>> LET'S LOOK AT THE IDEA THAT TRUMP IS NOT ENFORCING THIS VOTED FOR.

HOW CAN HE GET AWAY WITH THAT?

>> THERE IS --A LEGAL ISSUE OF COURSE AS TO WHETHER THE PRESIDENT CAN JUST REFUSE TO ENFORCE OR DECIDE TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH LAWS HE WANTS TO ENFORCE.

THE CONSTITUTION HAS SAID THAT'S PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS TO EXECUTE THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES.

I SUPPOSE ONE COULD ARGUE THERE IS SOME SORT OF DISCRETION IN DECIDING WHAT LAWS TO ENFORCE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S REALLY APPROPRIATE HERE.

THIS ISN'T A QUESTION OF A PROSECUTOR DECIDING NOT TO PROSECUTE SOMEONE THAT IS JAYWALKING, THIS IS A PASSED BY BIPARTISAN MAJORITIES OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

UPHELD BY THE SUPREME COURT AND IF THERE EVER WAS A STATUE WE WOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE WAS ENFORCED IT WOULD WOULD BE A NATIONAL SECURITY STATUTE.

ON TRUMP'S SIDE HE SAID FOR NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS HE WANTS MORE AUTHORITY TO CONTINUE TO DELAY THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS WHILE HE LOOKS AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY IMPLEMENTATIONS.

HE LOOKS AT WHAT TARIFFSES.

HE IS LOOKING AT IT FROM A DIFFERENT PICTURE.

I MIGHT ADD IT DOESN'T GIVE HIM AUTHORITY TO DO THAT.

IS HE CLAIMING ON HIS OWN.

>> IT WAS I THINK THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO SENT LETTERS TO THAT EFFECT AND SHE SAID THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS DETERMINED THAT A SHUT DOWN OF TIKTOK WOULD INTERFERE WITH THE EXECUTION OF THE PRESIDENT'S CONSTITUTIONAL DUTIES TO TAKE CARE OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE UNITED STATES.

EXPLAIN THAT ARGUMENT TO ME.

>> AS I SAID THE STATUTE IS QUITE CLEAR.

SO NUMBER ONE THE STATUTE REQUIRES ENFORCEMENT.

THERE'S NOTHING ABOUT IT THAT SAY ITSELF CAN'T BE ENFORCED ON THESE TERMS BY THE PRESIDENT.

WE HAVE NOT GENERALLY HAD ANY SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT THAT SAID THE PRESIDENT --IN USING HIS POWERS AS MANNER CHIEF HAS THE ABILITY TO SUSPEND OR NOT NOT A GENERAL RULE.

SO, IT'S A LEGAL QUESTION.

LEGALLY QUESTIONABLE.

AS I SAID THE PRESIDENT IS MAKING ASSERTION.

MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.

THE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY AREN'T GOING TO CROSS HIM.

EVEN THE DEMOCRATS ARE SORT OF CAUGHT A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO LOOK WEAK ON CHINA EITHER SO THEY ARE -- SORT OF WAITING TO SEE HOW THIS ALL TURNS OUT.

IT'S A SOMEWHAT DELICATE SITUATION.

THE PART THAT CONCERNS ME MOST BEYOND THE LEGAL POINT OF WHETHER THE PRESIDENT HAS THE POWER TO ENFORCE OR DECIDE WHICH LAWS TO ENFORCE AND THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT LEGAL POINT I DON'T WANT TO MINIMIZE IT BUT IS THE FACT THIS IS IT A LITTLE BIT OF A BOY WHO CRIED WOLF SITUATION.

IF WE HAVE A NATIONAL SECURITY STATUTE THAT WAS PASSED ON AN U RT ENT BASIS.

IT WAS THE REMEDY IN THE STATUTE.

THE BAN WAS ADOPTED WITHOUT ANY HEARING.

THIS WAS SO URGENT THAT CONGRESS JUST RUSHED IN AND DECIDED IT WAS CRITICAL AND NOW 16 MONTHS LATER EVERYBODY IS SAYING WELL, WE CAN WAIT A LITTLE BIT.

LET'S JUST WAIT AND WE HAVE AN APP THAT HALF OF AMERICANS OR A THIRD OF AMERICANS USE.

65% OF TEENS ARE USING AROUND THE COUNTRY.

IT'S BANNED ON MILITARY PHONES, GOVERNMENT PHONES, MOST STATE GOVERNMENT PHONES.

SO, IS THIS REALLY A NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE AND IF YOU WERE AN AVERAGE CITIZEN YOU WOULD SAY MAYBE IT'S NOT SUCH A BIG DEAL.

HOW ABOUT WHEN THE NEXT NATIONAL SECURITY SAYS ITS SUPPORT TO DO AND THE POPULATION SAID WE USED TIKTOK FOR YEARS.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT ERODING THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATUTES.

>> SO DOES THAT MEAN YOU THINK WE SHOULD JUST QUICKLY BAN IT?

>> I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THE ENTIRE IDEA OF BANNING THE TIKTOK WAS A BAD IDEA AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED WE ADOPT SOME VERSION OF A STRATEGY TO ABOUT CHINESE RISKS WE HAVE -- I HAVE A LOT OF OTHER RISKS THAT COME BEFORE THIS ONE AND SO I WOULD BE FOCUSING ON THE --THOSE.

TIKTOK IS A RISK.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT ISN'T BUT I THINK WE HAVE OTHER WAYS OF MITIGATING IT.

SO I --I WOULD SAY THAT --THE EYE TALE SOLUTION WOULD BE IF CHINA WILL GO HEAD AND RELEASE THE FORMULA AND WE CAN HAVE A --A REAL SALE.

THAT WOULD BE A FINE WAY OF DOING IT.

A SALE AND THE APP IS PUT IN AMERICAN HANDS AND THAT WOULD SOLVE IT.

I THINK THAT JUST CONTINUING TO EXTEND THE BAN ERODES SOME CONCERNS HERE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT APPROACH.

>> WHY HASN'T THERE NOT BEEN A LEGAL CHALLENGE TO THE FACT THAT TRUMP HAS NOT ENFORCED THIS BAN?

>> IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHO WOULD HAVE LEGAL STANDING TO DO THAT.

ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS HAVE BEEN RELATIVELY QUIET THOUGH THE CHINA SELECT COMMITTEE HAS --HAS SAID HE IS VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE SITUATION CAN.

A NUMBER OF THE REPUBLICANS HAVE SAID THAT TOO.

WHO WOULD HAVE THE STANDING TO CHALLENGE IT IS NOT TOTALLY CLEAR.

MAYBE ONE OF THE APP STORES SUCH AS APPLE OR GOOGLE MAY SEEK TO --GET AN INJUNCTION AS TO IF THE PRESIDENT HAS AUTHORITY TO DO THAT.

IT'S NOT IN THEIR INTEREST TO MAKE WAVES.

THEY ARE BETTER OFF JUST LETTING THE APP CONTINUE.

THE AVERAGE CITIZEN DOESN'T HAVE STANDING TO CHALLENGE THIS LAW.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A LEGAL PROBLEM.

>> AS YOU MENTIONED THERE WAS A SUPPOSED TO BE A NEGOTIATED SALE THAT WOULD --IN A COMPLETION WAY THE FORMULA THAT'S CONTROLLED BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT WOULD BE PUT INTO ANOTHER GROUP AND AN AMERICAN COMPANY COULD BUY IT.

IS THAT FEASIBLE AND WHAT'S THE STATUS OF THAT?

>> THIS SALE WOULD IF IT WAS REALLY GOING TO HAPPEN IN TERMS OF THE STATUTE WHICH HAS TWO BASIC REQUIREMENTS.

GET RID OF THE BAN.

IF THE APP IS NO LONGER CONTROLLED BY A CHINESE GROUP WHICH MEANS THEY CAN'T UNION 20% OF THE STOCK AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THAT THERE IS NO OPERATIONAL RELATIONSHIP.

THAT'S THE MAGIC WORDS OF THE STATUTE BETWEEN CHINA AND EITHER THE FORMULA OR THE USER DATA.

IF YOU SAY HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO A DEAL THAT --IN WHICH WE CAN SEPARATE THIS COMPLETE CLEANLY AND FROM CHINA ASSUMING THAT PRESIDENT XI WILL ALLOW THAT.

EVEN IF WE GOT OVER THAT AND THE PRESIDENT SAID I WILL DO A DEAL FOR TARIFFSES AND WE WILL LET IT GO.

FIRST OF ALL ITS UPDATED DAILY BY ENGINEERS INCHINA.

THAT IS GOING TO HAVE TO SHIFT INTO AMERICAN HANDS OR WHOEVER OWNS THE APP.

USER DATA WILL HAVE TOO BE IN THE UNITED STATES.

ORACLE SAID THEY ARE HAPPY TO STORE THE DATA IN THEIR CLOUD BUT THEN YOU HAVE ALL SORTS OF REALLY COMPLICATED OPERATIONAL QUESTIONS OF IF THE APP WAS IN THE UNITED STATES ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DESPERATE FORMULA, DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHER ONE THAT TIKTOK EMPLOYS, ELSEWHERE AROUND THE WORLD FOR IT'S ALMOST 1.6 BILLION USERS ALL ROUND THE REST OF THE WORLD HOW WILL THE TWO APPS WORK TOGETHER.

HOW WILL THEY MESH?

A KID IN BRAZIL WHO WATCHES AMERICAN TIKTOK VIDEOS TO GET THE LATEST DANCE MOVES WANTS TO HAVE ACCESS TO AMERICAN TIKTOK AND FRANKLY THAT IS TRUE FOR AMERICAN USERS TO.

GETTING THIS ALL TO MESH IN A OPERATIONAL WAY IS COMPLICATED.

FIGURING OUT A PRICE TAG IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO WANT TO CHARGE BILLIONS, TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR GIVING UP THIS APP AND THEY WOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE THE APP IS VIABLE ELSEWHERE AROUND THE WORLD.

IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT A DEAL IS EASY.

>> YOU SAY WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

THERE IS SOME RISK.

>> I WOULD PROBABLY GO BACK TO SOME VERSION OF INSISTING THERE BE AMERICAN LAYERS OF OVERSIGHT TO TRY TO CHECK OR STOP DISINFORMATION IF WE SAW IT STARTING TO APPEAR ONLINE AND ALSO THE ONE THING WE CAN DO BECAUSE IT'S POSSIBLE IS MAKE SURE THAT ALL USER DATA IS LOCKED DOWN IN THE UNITED STATES AND CAN'T BE TAKEN TO CHINA.

THERE WOULD BE --THERE SHOULD WE WAYS OF DOING THAT.

I THINK THAT WOULD GO A LONG WAY FOR DOING IT.

ON A BROADER LEVEL CONGRESS COULD GO BACK AND PASS PRIVACY LEGISLATION WHICH ITS BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR 20 YEARS.

THAT WOULD GO A STEP TOWARD ADDRESSING PEOPLE'S CONCERNS OVER USER DATA.

IT WOULD APPLY TO FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM AND TWITTER.

THERE ARE STEPS WE CAN TAKE.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THIS IS A LOOK AT A LARGER PROBLEM WHICH IS HOW WE DEAL WITH TECHNOLOGY THAT COMES FROM CHINA.

EXPLAIN SOME OF THOSE OTHER PROBLEMS.

>> SO WE HAVE A PATTERN IN THE UNITED STATES, PROBABLY FOR GOOD REASON OF LETTING TECHNOLOGY FLOURISH, ET CETERA WHICH IS ALL GOOD SUBPOENA THEN AFTER FLAWS BECOME CLEAR, AFTER MISUSE, AFTER SAFETY PROBLEMS, WHETHER IT'S AIRPLANES, CARS, ELECTRIC SIMMONS, YOU NAME IT WE THEN START TO REGULATE FOR SAFETY AND RISK REASONS.

IN THE CASE OF CHINESE APPS IT'S THE SAME ISSUE WHICH IS WE HAVE ALLOWED A LARGE NUMBER OF CHINESE TECHNOLOGY, GOOD AND USEFUL AND INEXTENSIVE TO COME INTO HOMES AND BUSINESSES AND THEN LATER AFTER WE HAVE DONE THAT WE REALIZE THERE IS A --A USER DATA RISK.

THERE'S A POLITICAL RISK.

SOME CYBERSECURITY RISK SO WE HAVE IN I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S THE MAJORITY OF HOMES BUT A VERY SIZABLE NUMBER OF HOMES TP ROUTERS WHICH ARE MADE IN CHINA.

THEY SEE EVERY PIECE OF INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC AND EMAIL THAT SOMEONE'S HOME OR BUSINESS GENERATES AND THAT --THERE IS HAVE TALKED ABOUT FOR TIKTOK THAT SOME OF THE DATA COULD BE INAPPROPRIATELY USED BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.

ALMOST EVERY VIDEO CAMERA ARE MADE BY CHINA.

THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T GENERALLY MANUFACTURER VIDEO CAMERAS.

DEEP SEEK IS A POPULAR CHINESE APP HOSTED ON CLOUD SERVERS HOSTED IN THE UNITED STATES AND IS USED BY AMERICAN USERS.

WE HAVE A PATTERN OF USING --.

>> THE AI COMPETITION TO CHAT GPT.

>> EXACTLY.

MY POINT IS THAT WE HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF CHINESE TECHNOLOGY IN HOMES AND BUSINESSES AND WE AWAKEN TO THE POTENTIAL RISKS ONLY AFTER WIDESPREAD ADOPTION WHEN IT'S HARD TO DO SOMETHING TAKE IT AWAY, SHUT IT DOWN.

FOR EXAMPLE SEVERAL YEARS AGO THE GOVERNMENT WAS CONCERNED ABOUT T EQUIPMENT IN THE UNITED STATES TELL AGAIN SYSTEMS.

THE GOVERNMENT BANNED IT, THEY START ADDED A PROGRAM TO RIP OUT THE EQUIPMENT FROM UNITED STATES SYSTEMS.

IN THE CASE OF THAT EQUIPMENT THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE YOU BAN IT, RIP IT OUT OR NOT.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE OF TIKTOK.

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF LESSENING THE RISK.

WE HAVE CHINESE TECHNOLOGY IN PORT CRANES AT OUR VITAL PORTS.

PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT HOW IN A TIME OF CRISIS CHINA COULD SEND A MESSAGE PARALYZING THOSE CRANES AND CAUSING TRADE CHAOS.

THERE ARE A WIDE RANGE OF CHINESE TECH APPLICATIONS, MANY ARE USEFUL, MANY ARE GOOD, NOT SAYING WE SHOULD BAN THEM.

WE NEED TO HAVE A PRINCIPLED WAY OF LOOKING AT THIS RATHER THAN THE APPROACH WE NOW HAVE WHICH SUDDENLY SOMETHING BECOMES THE ISSUE AND WE FOCUS ON THAT.

THAT'S NOT A GOOD WAY TO MANAGE THE OVERALL RISK OF CHINESE TECHNOLOGY.

IT'S USEFUL.

WE NEED TO ADDRESS THE RISKS.

>> GLENN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.